Walking backwards

24

Comments

  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Posts: 388Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 27 2012, 06:39 PM) »
    Well zastels, if people don't like it, they can go play another game. That's like saying we should remove the marine commander or make skulks as slow as marines "because people wouldn't like it" otherwise; those are all core parts of what Natural Selection is, and if you can't play with them, can't learn to play with them, can't even give them a try, then maybe this isn't the game for you.

    Honestly, if those people hate the gameplay so much, I have no idea why they'd even be in the game in the first place.



    hahahahahahaha

  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Posts: 796Members
    QUOTE (John Blackthorne @ Feb 27 2012, 05:53 PM) »
    So I went outside with 50lb or 22.7kg on my back and attempted to run backwards


    I'm getting deja vu here but running backwards in real life is not equivalent to backwards movement in a FPS. FPS controls are a simplified representation of bipedal movement, there is no 1:1 correlation. There are too many factors in normal human movement and agility to accurately simulate using a keyboard and a mouse, therefore the only relevant goal of FPS control is movement that feels natural. Nerfed backwards movement brings people out of the game in terms of suspension of disbelief, therefore it is a broken mechanic, because it is detrimental to the feel of navigation in the game. Whether or not a particular forum user is agile enough to run backwards in their yard is completely irrelevant, the only important metric is whether players get the impression of 'normal' human mobility while playing, and the answer is they don't. Therefore this mechanic deserves some polish.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Posts: 1,513Members, Constellation
    edited February 2012
    Zex - Thats completly a matter of opinion and subjective.

    What isn't a matter of opinion and subjective is the balance implications of increasing marine backwards speed (bottom line - you'd need to buff skulks and possibly other lifeforms) and the 'feel' of the game implied by having slow backspeed, that marines are vulnerable and if a skulk comes at you you either run or fight, not both at the same time.

    You may not like that feel and theme that slow back speed gaves and its your prerogative not to like it but it fits the feel and theme of NS2.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
  • SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
    walking backwards could be a little bit faster, imho.
    but better than fullspeed of course!
  • zexzex Join Date: 2009-10-07 Member: 68978Posts: 796Members
    QUOTE (Ph0enix @ Feb 27 2012, 11:58 PM) »
    Zex - Thats completly a matter of opinion and subjective


    nothing I said was subjective or a matter of opinion. all facts.

    1. running IRL is not equivalent to pressing 's' - fact
    2. fps controls are a simplification of IRL movement - fact
    3. the only possible correlation between pressing 's' and running is 'feel' - fact
    4. nerfing s brings some people out of the game, therefore the 'feel' isn't working as intended - fact (whether or not this is true for you personally)
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Posts: 1,677Members
    QUOTE (Flounder @ Feb 27 2012, 06:45 PM) »
    And I attempted to jump like a bunny rabbit.

    I really don't see why they removed one unrealistic movement ability but not another.

    I too play NS2 to remind me how real-life works and... wait... no, no I don't.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Posts: 705Members, Constellation
    So NS2 did suffer the backwards speed problem way way back.

    The marine backward speed was too fast...everyone simply fired and started backpedaling
    it worked like a dream....skulks always died...it was fabulous

    So they changed it to the system they found worked with NS1.
    yes it is odd.
    yes you have to learn to avoid walking backwards.

    But it prevents everyone from walking backwards firing at stuff.
    and it is far easier to explain than a system that makes aim wonky when you walk backwards.

    "Is it me or when I walk backwards I go really slow"
    "No it does that so marines can't shoot walking backwards...teaches them to aim instead of spray"
    "Oh...i'm playing aliens next round"
    "Really maybe I will Khamm"
    "Did you say Khan?"
    "Nevermind."

    So please please stop with the same idea of ...
    GIMME ... I don't like walking backwards slow.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    I'm not a fan of the backward speed reduction. I personally never had trouble closing distance on marines in the pre-B160 builds when marines had full backwards speed. Now skulks have a faster base speed + wall speed boost + leap in addition to the fact that they can use wall climbing to ambush marines from above or use vents to flank marines. If NS2 maps were all big outdoor areas with no cover, then slower marine backward speed would probably be necessary. The worst part is that this mechanic puts marines at a larger disadvantage vs fades than it does skulks.
  • John BlackthorneJohn Blackthorne Join Date: 2012-02-23 Member: 147245Posts: 44Members
    QUOTE (zex @ Feb 27 2012, 06:39 PM) »
    I'm getting deja vu here but running backwards in real life is not equivalent to backwards movement in a FPS. FPS controls are a simplified representation of bipedal movement, there is no 1:1 correlation. There are too many factors in normal human movement and agility to accurately simulate using a keyboard and a mouse, therefore the only relevant goal of FPS control is movement that feels natural. Nerfed backwards movement brings people out of the game in terms of suspension of disbelief, therefore it is a broken mechanic, because it is detrimental to the feel of navigation in the game. Whether or not a particular forum user is agile enough to run backwards in their yard is completely irrelevant, the only important metric is whether players get the impression of 'normal' human mobility while playing, and the answer is they don't. Therefore this mechanic deserves some polish.


    This is such an awesome thread with differing opinions at all points along the spectrum. The real question is where do we draw the line between realism and being a game. I mean we could turn this into unreal tournament or quake and have the marines running around at all kinds of ridiculous speeds and punching the aliens to death with their killer gloves of boxing or we could keep it more in line with a more realistic way of movement and shooting in a science fiction setting, comparing it to other FPS's is also a fruitless endeavor.


    "Oh I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" -Jean-Luc Picard
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Posts: 515Members
    -1 @ OP

    leave it how it is, you need to rebalance the whole game if this is changed.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,767Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    What a strange thread..
    I mean, there isnt even a need gameplay wise to increase backwards movement speed. Zastel, its no use simply saying "everyone doesn't like it and thinks its unnatural" therefore lalala - what presumptive garbage honestly. To say that new players will simply walk backwards and find it confusing, unintuitive, and unfun is total crap and a copout. Let me point out WoW, which still has a huge subscriber base and has always had slower backward movement speed as a key cornerstone to movement in nearly everything you do from pvp to pve.

    I think increased backwards movement speed would just make marine movement more shallow and boring not to mention the huge balance changes required for basically no net benefit.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Posts: 253Members
    QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 28 2012, 06:45 PM) »
    What a strange thread..
    Let me point out WoW, which still has a huge subscriber base and has always had slower backward movement speed as a key cornerstone to movement in nearly everything you do from pvp to pve.

    I think increased backwards movement speed would just make marine movement more shallow and boring not to mention the huge balance changes required for basically no net benefit.


    owned.
    i like me. do you like me?
  • John BlackthorneJohn Blackthorne Join Date: 2012-02-23 Member: 147245Posts: 44Members
    QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 28 2012, 12:45 AM) »
    What a strange thread..
    I mean, there isnt even a need gameplay wise to increase backwards movement speed. Zastel, its no use simply saying "everyone doesn't like it and thinks its unnatural" therefore lalala - what presumptive garbage honestly. To say that new players will simply walk backwards and find it confusing, unintuitive, and unfun is total crap and a copout. Let me point out WoW, which still has a huge subscriber base and has always had slower backward movement speed as a key cornerstone to movement in nearly everything you do from pvp to pve.

    I think increased backwards movement speed would just make marine movement more shallow and boring not to mention the huge balance changes required for basically no net benefit.

    1 up
    "Oh I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" -Jean-Luc Picard
  • DeityDeity Join Date: 2012-01-31 Member: 142843Posts: 94Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 28 2012, 12:45 AM) »
    what presumptive garbage honestly.


    My sentiments exactly. I'm boggled that this is a 3-page thread.

  • endarendar Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73256Posts: 620Members, Squad Five Blue
    I'm finding myself agreeing with elodea (which is a surprise), if it is such a problem for everyone, why is there a thread only coming up now?

    Also I've never heard a marine ask me "why do I move slow backwards", its pretty ###### obvious!
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 905Members
    edited February 2012
    It's a 3 page thread coz most of us can walk backwards, its easy and natural to do when faced by danger, we're not cats or dogs, our knees bend the right way for walking backwards and you probably wouldn't be here if one of your ancestors couldn't walk backwards easily unlike people don't do in NS2.

    More over, a skulk goes backwards faster than a marine yet has shorter legs that bend the same way as humans. Gah, conservation of momentum fails in yet another computer game! (ahem, fade)

    Not saying it needs to change, but jeez people, get up and move!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    - 1991 is the Halcyon year of gaming -
     
    Best quote off locked NS2 forum ever:
     
    "The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not."
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (zex @ Feb 28 2012, 01:16 AM) »
    nothing I said was subjective or a matter of opinion. all facts.

    1. running IRL is not equivalent to pressing 's' - fact
    2. fps controls are a simplification of IRL movement - fact
    3. the only possible correlation between pressing 's' and running is 'feel' - fact
    4. nerfing s brings some people out of the game, therefore the 'feel' isn't working as intended - fact (whether or not this is true for you personally)


    Oh so wrong... (besides the fact that this realism argument is irrelevant, but ok:)
    1. Wrong. The marine simulates a human being on a very low level. Hitting 's' is simulated backpedaling and this is slow - fact
    2. Simplification don't has to cut every disadvantage of the real process. For example, you can't sprint at the speed of light. - fact
    3. Wrong. Its a simplified simulation of a real life action. - fact
    4. Losing in various ways brings some people out of the game, therefore they get better and adapt to new mechanics or leave. Only a few cry in the forums about changing the game so that their deficiencies don't make them lose all the time and they don't have to adapt to new stuff. - fact

    See, I gave you many arguments in my last posts why this mechanic is intentional in the game and adds in many ways to the game mechanic, such like team play and the feeling of being weak in close quarters fight as marine. And its important for the game balance with two asymmetrical teams. You only came with arguments like "Because other games do it so, every game has to do it the same.", "I don't like how it feels." (What simply means: "I can't adapt to new things.") Sure, you have to get used to it and than it feels totally right.

    Bring some arguments beside the "feel", why it would be better to have the full speed. But don't use arguments like "Because they do it so in every other game." Because we don't need no other AvP3. We want a new game with refreshing other game mechanics.

    Would you also blame the soccer rules, because you can't take the ball in the hand? But football and handball and basketball and so many other games allowing the player to take the ball in the hand, so soccer should too. Besides its realistic. The hands are the things to interact with objects. Why should we use our feet? It just does not feel right.
  • endarendar Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73256Posts: 620Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2012
    If you re going to keep bringing realism into this argument, then go outside and run backwards, and please post your results.

    edit: not aimed at the post directly above me.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 905Members
    edited February 2012
    What do you want? proof I'm still here? its easy...most of the difficulty is not wanting to look backwards. What is your counter argument?

    Oh, and do note, I said "not saying it needs to change" ... just, if you can't understand why its a conceptual issue for people, I think you don't move much in an outdoor environment. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

    Opps, double edit: 'keep' bringin realism into the argument? that was my first post. My point stands. It should be obvious why its an issue for some people.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    - 1991 is the Halcyon year of gaming -
     
    Best quote off locked NS2 forum ever:
     
    "The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not."
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Feb 28 2012, 10:27 AM) »
    What do you want? proof I'm still here? its easy...most of the difficulty is not wanting to look backwards. What is your counter argument?

    Oh, and do note, I said "not sayng it needs to change" ... just, if you can't understand why its a conceptual issue for people, I think you don't move much in an outdoor environment. Please tell me if I'm wrong.


    That no matter, how fast you can run backwards, its not as fast as you can run normally. And that this whole realism argument is nonsense. As you can see in my soccer - comparison.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 905Members
    edited February 2012
    But soccer is real, what is nonsense?

    It shouldn't be as slow as it is on a realistic scale.

    No wonder people are complaining. And my skulk example? or are you cherry picking?

    Oh an necro, a bit harsh, coz massless objects move at the speed of light, to a massless object, its already completed its journey the instant it started....wait till people can change their mass at will. After all, now that I'm not supposed to be talking realism, and we have a game full of 'nano' tech ... uh oh, if I'm not ment to realistic, I can think any solution to my argument and still be valid given my premis is valid. No?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    - 1991 is the Halcyon year of gaming -
     
    Best quote off locked NS2 forum ever:
     
    "The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not."
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    You doesn't get my point with this comparison. There is no matter how it is in real life. The rules in a game are there for balance and to add a challenge. Like not using your hands in a soccer game. So it is unimportant how fast exactly you can run in real life or how good you can throw a ball into a goal with your hands. It simply doesn't matter, because the game rules say it to add a challenge. Its in the game to balance ranged vs melee AND to add the challenge to the marines to slowly advance the map, while covering each other and not running around like in serious sam and killing everything like rambo.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 905Members
    edited February 2012
    But skulks DO run around everyone like serious sam... thus the original complaint.

    Again, not saying it needs to be changed, but I'm ment to be playing a human right, as a 'Marine'...as it stands, its *counter intuitive*... thus going against the 'easyer to get into than NS1 idea' ... bringing us back to the topic of the thread ... So I'm a human with bung horse hind legs, fair enough, why don't player models represent his...why am I not playing a visually apparent satyr?

    Oh, and fair enough, I didnt read your soccer analogy coz my point was talking real life doesnt matter for you if im not also allowed to, but to focus on the soccer analogy...im soccer *it is possible* to turn and run with the ball all better than feet like. In NS2 it isn't possible to run backwards even though I'm a human. Rules? We're talking physical ability, thus counter intuitive. I'd like to see a skulk carry a ball, after all...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    - 1991 is the Halcyon year of gaming -
     
    Best quote off locked NS2 forum ever:
     
    "The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not."
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Posts: 515Members
    edited February 2012
    put 30kg's (66.1386787 pounds) of body armor on, a rifle or grenade launcher or flame thrower with ammunition a pistol with ammunition and an axe, get your rifle in aiming position and see how fast you can move backwards. These guys are absolute athletes to carry around this sort of equipment.

    And you want them to be able to almost jog or sprint backwards.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Feb 28 2012, 10:45 AM) »
    Oh, and fair enough, I didnt read your soccer analogy coz my point was talking real life doesnt matter for you if im not also allowed to, but to focus on the soccer analogy...im soccer *it is possible* to turn and run with the ball all better than feet like. In NS2 it isn't possible to run backwards even though I'm a human. Rules? We're talking physical ability, thus counter intuitive. I'd like to see a skulk carry a ball, after all...


    Sorry, but if you want to misunderstand me, than this arguing has as much sense as playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I'm at chess, the pigeon will chaotic peck the pawns and the king over and act like it has won the game.

    It's so simple: The slow backpedal speed is a essential game rule. No matter if or if not it is very realistic. Like you don't play with hands in a soccer match. Its to add challenge and define the mechanic of the game. And this mechanic is: marines got guns but are slow, aliens got movement but have only melee.
  • WorthyRivalWorthyRival Black Armor Division Join Date: 2006-11-07 Member: 58470Posts: 557Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I don't care for this realism factor eveyones going on about but the fun of alien / marine engagments.

    Id prefer to see better, faster movement for marines dealing with fade and onos engagments and I think a little more speed walking backwards would help this.

    Also nanites.
    Worthy's Co_Maps.
    ns2_co_assault Fourms, Workshop,
    ns2_co_nest Fourms, Workshop,
    ns2_co_chuteout Fourms, Workshop,
    ns2_co_portals Marine Start and Room 5 Fourms, Workshop,

    Worthy's NS2_Maps.
    ns2_nanogrid Fourms, Workshop,

    Worthy's XS_Maps.
    xs_maze Workshop,

    Worthy's Marine Vs Marine Maps.
    mvm_assault Workshop,
    image
  • DeKayDeKay Join Date: 2009-06-08 Member: 67752Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (BVKnight @ Feb 27 2012, 05:12 PM) »
    I realize this has no bearing on what they do in game, and I'm not trying to flame you, but have you ever tried to run backwards? You would be lucky to get a few feet before falling. I don't care what they end up doing, but I think the way they have it now is actually more realistic, not less.


    This. Its absolutely fine the way it is.
  • endarendar Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73256Posts: 620Members, Squad Five Blue
    If the argument is about being able to run while looking over your shoulder in real life, but not in NS2, then
    1) You still cannot move as fast as you could if you were looking straight ahead, than if you were looking over shoulder
    2) Try strafing, its almost as fast and still allows you to kind of look at whats chasing you.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    Ill go 1 better
    how about if marines are not even allowed to walk backwards?

    s does nothing if you are a marine
  • CodeineCodeine Join Date: 2010-11-22 Member: 75155Posts: 515Members
    QUOTE (ogz @ Feb 28 2012, 01:14 PM) »
    Ill go 1 better
    how about if marines are not even allowed to walk backwards?

    s does nothing if you are a marine


    +1
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