Walking backwards

zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Posts: 246Members
I just played NS2 again and then came an unevitable moment when i wanted to walk back a bit, i just cringed.

I know why it's in there but the crawl-slow backwards walk feels so uncredibly unreal. It's a bit silly to have a player believe that it's anything -but- a nerf.

Have you guys, devs, ever tried to speed it up?

Maybe something for the future where the alien classes move a bit faster.
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Comments

  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Posts: 388Members
    Yup I agree, it's no good.

    If you want to avoid marines running backwards and firing, this is not the way to do it.

    I think the constant reach for 'balance' is what creates these ideas. I say give the same back speed as front, and unless you seriously feel something is wrong then change it. Right now it feels gross.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited February 2012
    The "something wrong" with full-speed backwards movement is that Marines can just run back and blast skulks as they chase. Stop trying to run and start trying to dodge; you'll find the movement much easier to work with.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • BVKnightBVKnight Join Date: 2012-02-26 Member: 147496Posts: 194Members
    I realize this has no bearing on what they do in game, and I'm not trying to flame you, but have you ever tried to run backwards? You would be lucky to get a few feet before falling. I don't care what they end up doing, but I think the way they have it now is actually more realistic, not less.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    ^ditto. The importance or unimportance of realism aside, claiming that the inability to run backwards at so speed feels unrealistic just makes no sense.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Posts: 388Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 27 2012, 01:14 PM) »
    ^ditto. The importance or unimportance of realism aside, claiming that the inability to run backwards at so speed feels unrealistic just makes no sense.


    Don't make the argument semantical. If something is "unrealistic" it simply is not desirable.

    Clearly he is saying he does not like the way things feel when he runs backwards. I understand this, because running backwards is way too slow, and therefore a useless function.

    Think about what happens. You blow all your ammo, your gun auto reloads, you turn to sprint away, but you can't because you're reloading. You should be able to backpedal while reloading at a decent speed so you can continue to see where the skulk is. The current system makes people turn around and start frantically jumping or sprinting away, it makes you feel overly vulnerable.

    Like I said, clearly this is to avoid a marine running backwards and shooting a skulk, making it hard for the skulk to close the gap. But this is over the top right now, and anyone who plays other FPS games is going to find this current system to be odd feeling.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    An odd feeling? Maybe. A unique characteristic of NS gameplay? Definitely. You simply can't balance it in another way, when you have melee vs ranged teams. How do you think should an alien close the distance to actually damage you, when you just can shoot and running backwards at a ridiculous speed.

    Why can't you adapt to this game mechanic? Its so simple: The marines got the guns, the aliens got the movement.
    If you can't kill the alien until it reaches you, you are dead. And that is right this way.

    Imagine the movie Aliens2 where the marines running backwards at full speed chased by aliens. Simply ridiculous. And in NO WAY realistic! Just because every other game has it, does not mean, that it has to be the same in NS2. Buy CoD728 if you want the same shooter crap ever and ever again.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • John BlackthorneJohn Blackthorne Join Date: 2012-02-23 Member: 147245Posts: 44Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (zeep @ Feb 27 2012, 12:06 PM) »
    I just played NS2 again and then came an unevitable moment when i wanted to walk back a bit, i just cringed.

    I know why it's in there but the crawl-slow backwards walk feels so uncredibly unreal. It's a bit silly to have a player believe that it's anything -but- a nerf.

    Have you guys, devs, ever tried to speed it up?

    Maybe something for the future where the alien classes move a bit faster.



    QUOTE (zastels @ Feb 27 2012, 12:23 PM) »
    Don't make the argument semantical. If something is "unrealistic" it simply is not desirable.

    Clearly he is saying he does not like the way things feel when he runs backwards. I understand this, because running backwards is way too slow, and therefore a useless function.

    Think about what happens. You blow all your ammo, your gun auto reloads, you turn to sprint away, but you can't because you're reloading. You should be able to backpedal while reloading at a decent speed so you can continue to see where the skulk is. The current system makes people turn around and start frantically jumping or sprinting away, it makes you feel overly vulnerable.

    Like I said, clearly this is to avoid a marine running backwards and shooting a skulk, making it hard for the skulk to close the gap. But this is over the top right now, and anyone who plays other FPS games is going to find this current system to be odd feeling.


    +1 to the OP for starting this thread, the backwards movement on both teams is lacking the speed they should have and I hope to see this addressed in a future update.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    "Oh I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" -Jean-Luc Picard
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    The day marines get full-speed backpedaling is the day aliens get LMGs. One form of alien has something similar to an lmg, just like one form of Marine (Jetpack) has something similar to a quick backpedal, but those are the only exceptions, and they're staying.

    Complain about unrealistic realism all you want, but this has been a staple mechanic for years. Learn to adapt or get eaten; the choice is yours.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • John BlackthorneJohn Blackthorne Join Date: 2012-02-23 Member: 147245Posts: 44Members
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 27 2012, 12:33 PM) »
    The day marines get full-speed backpedaling is the day aliens get LMGs. One form of alien has something similar to an lmg, just like one form of Marine (Jetpack) has something similar to a quick backpedal, but those are the only exceptions, and they're staying.

    Complain about unrealistic realism all you want, but this has been a staple mechanic for years. Learn to adapt or get eaten; the choice is yours.

    So I went outside with 50lb or 22.7kg on my back and attempted to run backwards and well I think we should all disregard this thread haha, Techercizer you should have seen failure in motion. Physics is always more fun hands on. :D
    "Oh I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" -Jean-Luc Picard
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Posts: 388Members
    My opinion is a skulk can still catch a marine even if he can full speed run backwards. Skulks are still faster. Skulks can still ambush. They can still retreat to a vent.

    Any perception of imbalance from this is exaggerated.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (zastels @ Feb 27 2012, 07:00 PM) »
    My opinion is a skulk can still catch a marine even if he can full speed run backwards. Skulks are still faster. Skulks can still ambush. They can still retreat to a vent.

    Any perception of imbalance from this is exaggerated.

    And this opinion is simply wrong.
    I would say, you don't play aliens often. Or you should know it better.
    10 shots of an LMG and you are dead. Why do you need to run backwards while doing that?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Posts: 246Members
    A lot of strong opinions.

    Look, to the defenders of slow backwalks walking, i don't mean to imply that NS2 marine movement should be 'realistic'. Forget that word please. When a new NS2 player chooses marine for the first time, and walks backwards, he'll think something is wrong. He'll ask something like, "why am i moving back so slow?", and other players will reply stuff like "you're not supposed to move back fast" or "balance". I don't think anyone in their right mind will ask him to go run backwards outside for realism's sake.

    When i say it feels unreal i mean like, not moving how you'd expect the player to move compared to 20 other fps games you've played in the last years. Like a cheap nerf.

    In any case i will keep playing NS2.

    My question to the devs. since we're in alpha/beta anyway, try changing speeds here & there, see how it goes. Ok?
  • FlounderFlounder Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31656Posts: 177Members
    QUOTE (John Blackthorne @ Feb 27 2012, 12:53 PM) »
    So I went outside with 50lb or 22.7kg on my back and attempted to run backwards

    And I attempted to jump like a bunny rabbit.

    I really don't see why they removed one unrealistic movement ability but not another.
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    I also agree with th OP, backwards should be at normal Marine speed, the penalty should be to accuracy.

    Sideways movement and jumping feels less Marine-like than moving backwards, tactically keeping distance makes more sense than jumping about.

    The aliens should have to time their attacks to avoid long straight corridors, where the Marines should have the edge.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,379Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    I see 1 vs 1 discussion all over the place. Marines should be at a disadvantage 1 vs 1, just make sure your buddy is walking a bit behind you so he can pick off the skulks near you, works wonders.

    And it's usually from one perspective, look at it from the alien side... Fullthrottle marines moving backwards, that is stuff of nightmares dammit!

    Forum Admin "to protect and serve" Admin/Moderator I mostly use a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

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  • Tool8Tool8 Join Date: 2012-01-01 Member: 139405Posts: 110Members
    Normal (or almost normal) speed when walking backwards, but make weapons really inaccurate when shooting while moving backwards.
    +1 to OP
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    This ,,small change" of allowing marine to move backwards in full speed will have major impact on the gameplay. This is one of the core mechanic the game is build upon, to change it we have to do major changes to everything else. Fixing the issues it would cause will probably take months.
    Also kiting will become really easy, even if you had a accuracy penalty marines will still be able to kite aliens into line fire of other maines by simply pressing s, this takes away alot of depth that is build into the mechanic.

    I understand why it is annoying, people are used to be able to simply walk backwards when needed and it does take efford to learn to dodge as marine, but it is one of these things that makes ns so rewarding. It's also one of the things that separates ns from the other generic shooters out there.

    Imo simple and rewarding mechanics should stay in the game, Im pretty sure it doesn't take long for players to relieze that its better to sidestep than step backwards. I'm sure most of you will love this mechanic when you start avoiding skulks and trick them into vunurable situations.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Feb 27 2012, 07:03 PM) »
    I see 1 vs 1 discussion all over the place. Marines should be at a disadvantage 1 vs 1, just make sure your buddy is walking a bit behind you so he can pick off the skulks near you, works wonders.


    There should be no advantage, MvS combat should be even, the natural advantage of each side is based on the distance between them.
  • John BlackthorneJohn Blackthorne Join Date: 2012-02-23 Member: 147245Posts: 44Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Flounder @ Feb 27 2012, 01:45 PM) »
    And I attempted to jump like a bunny rabbit.

    I really don't see why they removed one unrealistic movement ability but not another.

    Yes Flounder like and bunny rabbit and fell down after about 35 hops, I also tried some hill sprints with it on and that was amazing. The all around movement still needs some work. I think we could all agree.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    "Oh I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" -Jean-Luc Picard
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (Grissi @ Feb 27 2012, 07:09 PM) »
    This ,,small change" of allowing marine to move backwards in full speed will have major impact on the gameplay. This is one of the core mechanic the game is build upon, to change it we have to do major changes to everything else. Fixing the issues it would cause will probably take months.


    That is overstating the effect, there are 100s of things that are going to need tweaks here and there.

    Major impacts are, jet packs, exo, spawn times, blink. Backwards walk speed is minor next to them.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,379Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    QUOTE (sam8uca @ Feb 27 2012, 07:12 PM) »
    There should be no advantage, MvS combat should be even, the natural advantage of each side is based on the distance between them.

    Well obviously I meant close range mostly. But 1 vs 1 with equal skills, Skulks have always had an advantage, ever since the early days of NS...

    Forum Admin "to protect and serve" Admin/Moderator I mostly use a flamethrower tank for disputes... Mostly

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  • 1v4n1v4n Join Date: 2011-08-23 Member: 118143Posts: 4Members
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Posts: 1,513Members, Constellation
    This thread is why we can't have nice things.

    :)

    But yeah, anyway, if you increase marine backwards movement you'd have to gave skulks more health/armour/speed. The third option is redundant and the first two don't stop it being frustrating chasing a marine running backwards.

    This isn't every other FPS, get used to it.
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    It's really not Quake3 Arena. The marines are meant to be somewhat static and have to rely on their aiming and most of all, the teamwork. You would break the whole game really bad if you could just outrun every alien while shooting at it. Its a feature. It encourages considered movement in squads, where you cover each other and lonely rambos die, because 1 skulk vs 1 marine isn't (and don't should be) even.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    Agree with Necro on this one. Marine movement should encourage team play and they should be vulnerable unless in a group. I find Skulk play frustrating at times as it is and increasing backwards speed would make it more so. I find the side to side and diagonal movement to be a touch fast too and most engagements turn into a marine jump and shoot, and Skulk circle fest. Looks daft and ruins the feel of the game. There are a million run and gun games out there and NS2 is very different to those and hopefully UE change and tweak it to perfection before release. A little inertia would be nice to stop some of the above. Slower start speed and increasing to sprint say. Slightly slower straffe speed also to stop the circle fights and make things more tactical.

    Sal
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • XosteanXostean Join Date: 2012-02-17 Member: 146370Posts: 187Members
    There is not a reason why Marines should be able to back peddle at full speed. This would HORRIBLY imbalance aliens and their ability to kill in close range.

    Just learn to circle strafe, you will be fine
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  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Xostean @ Feb 27 2012, 09:30 PM) »
    Just learn to circle strafe, you will be fine


    Thats it. Circle strafe: Strafe to one side and look the whole time at the alien. Only change direction after at least 1 second. You just have to place your crosshairs the whole time on the alien and fire. Now you only need to find the perfect distance to begin circle strafing before you get hit.

    Oh and don't ever use the "s" key in close fight, it slows you down!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • zastelszastels Join Date: 2003-11-29 Member: 23731Posts: 388Members
    You have an argument that makes sense, but ultimately you're making a sacrifice to keep things the same. Marines should be able to walk backwards at a higher rate (a flat reduction can be made, say -10%) because it is what is normal in FPS games. No, it is not okay for NS2 to be using this as a 'staple feature'. People are not going to like it.

    If the marine vs skulk becomes unbalanced because marines have a higher backward speed, then change another gameplay aspect to fix it. Don't nerf something as vital as backspeed, it does not contribute to a system of fluid movement.

    Skulks run faster, they have leap, they can ambush, cloak, when there isn't even movement chambers yet and they're good. It isn't all resting on the variable marine backspeed.
  • FlounderFlounder Join Date: 2004-09-12 Member: 31656Posts: 177Members
    QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 27 2012, 02:47 PM) »
    It's really not Quake3 Arena.

    +1
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited February 2012
    Well zastels, if people don't like it, they can go play another game. That's like saying we should remove the marine commander or make skulks as slow as marines "because people wouldn't like it" otherwise; those are all core parts of what Natural Selection is, and if you can't play with them, can't learn to play with them, can't even give them a try, then maybe this isn't the game for you.

    Honestly, if those people hate the gameplay so much, I have no idea why they'd even be in the game in the first place.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

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