Jetpack cost vs viability

GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
edited February 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Would just like to try and clarify what jetpack is designed to be used for? Is it a late game or mid game mechanic? What specific classes is it surpose to give an advantage over? Also does anyone else think jetpack should have a longer run time due to how much it costs?

Because it's actual use seems quite ineffective for how much it costs. Yes it helps alot as you can get away from almost every alien class, but most of them just chase you down. I have experienced being run down quite a few times and, also watched as commander, many other marines being run down as well. Considering how long it takes to get the dam things, it seems like the cost just is not worth it.

Vs Skulks

Example getting a GL and jet pack will cost you 45 res. The fact that if you get caught in a tunnel by a skulk, there is a very real chance that you can die due to not being able to fly up. Even if you do manage to escape, (which is hard considering they leap after you) good skulks will have parasited you and just simply follow you till you have to land. Yes you can shoot back at them while flying backwards, but half the time thats going to get you flying into a wall or something. You usually have to look where your generally going to land to land in a safe location. The fact that you can lose 45 res from a starting alien with no upgrades quite easily, makes no sense. In comparison a starting marine with no upgrades, has a slim chance in hell of killing a fade.

Vs Fades

This is probably my biggest concern. Aliens can get fades very quickly as we all know. The problem is jetpack costs alot to initially get. You can push for early jetpack, but that usually requires you to not get upgrades and weapons. This usually means jetpack does little as you simply cant kill fades, even if you can escape from them. I mean is jetpack surpose to be the counter to fades? Even if you get away and start nailing the fade, they can simply fade away. Very soon you will be coming back down, at which point fades usually just 'fade back up to you' after regening. Sure not always but alot of the time. Fades can simply wait till they have the advantage.

This is where cost really hits it for me. A good fade can usually kill 4-5 marines and stay alive for a very long time from his first evolution. Marines with jetpacks on the other hand can end up dead within about 20 seconds of getting their jetpack. Anyone else get annoyed when you have just spent 45 res as marine and die right away? The benefits just dont seem to out weight the costs. The same amount of res for a major different in survival time.

Vs OH NOS

They have to much HP, they follow you till you land, jetpack not designed to beat them, enough said.

Suggestions

1. Increase jetpack run time by about 5 seconds. This way marines can stay in the air, in a battle to actually have a good fight, instead of using it to just run away. Also with an extended flight time they would even have the option of reloading in the air, so that when they do have to land they arent just sitting ducks. Or more to the point when they really need to get out they can fly down a few hallways and ACTUALLY get to the next room without being run down in the hallway.

2. Reduce the proto lab to 25 res so that marines can get it mid game, about the same time as fades pop. Even if you don't increase flight time, having jetpacks almost the same time as fades would make a HUGE difference, and also balance the current fade devastation. That way mid game would be a real on the move, fast pace battle where fades and marines now have large moving capacity. It would setup late game for all the heavy weapons and be that much more interesting.

Currently I just feel jetpacks aren't worth it. Anyone else think the same?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 908Members
    We're probably about to be flamed for being nublets, GOT, but I agree, the few times I buy a JP I just make 1 on 1 combat last slightly longer .... It only seems really effective when a group of JP Marines make it into an expanse like Cave hive on Mineshaft .... With phase gate available earlier, it seems more efficient to buy heavy weapons.

    All in all, the JP feels alot 'chunkyer' or 'cumbersome' than in NS1.
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Posts: 897Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE
    Would just like to try and clarify what jetpack is designed to be used for?

    that's a good question and id like to know this as well. it seems like an allrounder for me, giving an advantage in combat as well as in mobility/tactics.

    well, the biggest downside is, as you mentioned, the limited usage in small corridors. so i guess this is the type of territory where exos are supposed to be the most effective.


    anyway, i have to disagree with your statements that jetpacks are not worth it. i consider the jetpack already quite useful even though i have still quite some room for improvement. there are so many little tricks to learn... just today i noticed how effective a gl can be if you shoot at your feet while flying straight up. oni can often be avoided if you make clever use of terrain with multiple layers (you can climb back up where they can't). the increased mobility makes it great for hit&run on harvesters as well as sitting on top of hives, filling it with shotgun shells while escaping the moment the skulks climb nearby walls. the list goes on and on... i think it's too early to buff the jetpacks as it might be the most experience/skill-based mechanic the marines have. give it some time.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    The biggest issue I have with the JP is that its something marines only get when they are flush with res. The cost makes it prohibitive to get to try to turn around a losing round. Also, the sluggishness of acceleration when changing direction is a bit frustrating.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    i think it needs a little more pop off the ground, but in general i like it a lot. You really have to be aware of your surroundings...it's an investment, you should have to protect it. Just like when you go fade you can't just wade into shotgunners.
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  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    It's designed to let you exploit the environment the way the skulk/lerk/fade can. There are buttons on the commander UI for speed/fuel upgrades, so you can expect those concepts eventually.

    It's very powerful, and it will be even moreso when you also have access to the exosuit (so your team can use both at once, with a variety of weapons).

    There's an added bonus to it that's not in NS1 - you can fly over infestation and not be slowed down like you would if you were on the ground. That will become more important when the Shift is added and marines have to work extra hard to not be run over by really fast aliens.

    Like everything (is supposed to be) in NS, it's a very skill-based choice to use a jetpack. You don't win fights just for having it - you have to also execute your flight and aiming to the best of your ability. If more than 5 people actually tried playing lerk, I'm sure we would see people saying it isn't worth the cost of 1.5 shotguns..
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 20 2012, 04:13 PM) »
    I'm sure we would see people saying it isn't worth the cost of 1.5 shotguns..

    I'm more talking about the full cost to research. It takes an advanced armory (30), protolab (40), and JP research (35) for a grand total of 105 TRes. That's the most TRes of anything except full arms lab upgrades. As such, its generally not worth forgoing better weapons (SGs, GLs, FTs), upgrades (W1/2/3, A1/2/3), sentries, or PGs just to get JPs.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 908Members
    Can't personally remember NS1 having infestation...

    I'd much rather spend 30 res on becoming a Lerk than 20 res on a JP.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,610Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team, Pistachionauts admin
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 20 2012, 03:24 PM) »
    The biggest issue I have with the JP is that its something marines only get when they are flush with res. The cost makes it prohibitive to get to try to turn around a losing round. Also, the sluggishness of acceleration when changing direction is a bit frustrating.


    +1
    except i disagree with the acceleration, i believe the devs NAILED the movement of the jetpack perfectly, feels exactly how i imagined it and my fears of them "gimping or "nerfing" it were washed away on day one!

    edit:
    QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 20 2012, 05:12 PM) »
    That's the most TRes of anything
    thats a really good point.. hmm..
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Feb 20 2012, 09:12 PM) »
    I'm more talking about the full cost to research. It takes an advanced armory (30), protolab (40), and JP research (35) for a grand total of 105 TRes. That's the most TRes of anything except full arms lab upgrades


    AA is something you get anyway in any reasonable game

    protolab and jetpack are high cost because they unlock high tech - in the future the protolab will also give you exosuits, as well as exosuit/jetpack upgrades

    jetpack research is there to change the timings of when things are scouted versus when they come out (and it's a high cost because jetpacks are bloody powerful)

    here's some food for thought:
    • aliens make a hive that costs 75 tres to unlock each new lifeform
    • lifeforms cost more than any of the guns or armors individually...the higher lifeforms cost approximately what a gun AND armor suit do together
    • command chairs cost 1/4 of what hives cost and block hive sites
    • add together the cost of a chair and the cost of an AA or proto - you have approximately the cost of a hive, to unlock the same amount/level of tech!


    the resource cost balancing of this game is really complicated, but don't think that marines have been done some huge disservice because they can't get jetpacks for barely any money. if they could, the game would devolve into really dumb jetpack rushes all the time (not like the one breadgunner did earlier today...THAT was cool)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Posts: 210Members
    I dont think the argument is about jetpacks costing too much, more that they are too weak. The added maneuverability is not what it was in NS1, however NS2 is a very different game. I think some of the problem is just they are very situational.. some maps/rooms they make all the difference, others they are useless. Marines getting jetpacks in NS1 was generally an endgame move, unless the aliens had 3 hives. In NS2 they do not carry that kind of power. The marine tech currently is quite linear because pushing armor/weapon upgrades early is generally a waste as you need the higher tier weaponry early to deal with the hive/aliens, and res flow is slow than NS1. To actively counter 2 hive aliens you really need 2/2 upgrades and AA with flamer/gls, and the amount of tres there is much more than a hive with all alien upgrades. Also the armor upgrades are only 15 a level instead of 20. The flipside is that the investment in energy the aliens need to make per resource tower they take, which without proper gorge support or teamwork can be a big weakness for aliens. I think that both teams currently have a lot of weakness/oddities and need major tweaking.
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    edited February 2012
    Im not questioning its ability and what you can do, im questioning the cost to get it and the lenght of use. Yes you can do all these things but it's mostly late game by which it's either to late or doesnt add any benefit cause your winning anyway. Also as I stated yes it works well but it's to short. For its cost and ur expected survival time vs a fade, it seems stupid. I saw that they are going to add lenght time boost and speed but thats going to be an extra cost. You are now probably looking at 90-100 res just to get decent jetpacks which will just push it back further to very end game.

    I know other equipment is going to be added and what not, but thats why im questioning, that why cant they cut the cost a bit so marines can get it earlier. Even if its slower and unupgraded, it would help alot more early-mid game especially against fades. Once you have more resources you can upgrade it sure, and with added weapons it will become a powerful late game tool as well. But why cant the price of say the proto lab be reduced to get the jetpacks earlier to offset fade and lerks. Would make a huge difference. And that still doesnt change the fact that you can get lvl 1 armour and weapons, an Obs, and phase tech in comparison.

    Most teams just dont bother with jetpacks till they have lots of res which is stupid cause soon we will probably have other better things to choose instead.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    I mean a drop in the proto lab cost to say 25 res means marines could get jetpacks fairly early but with weapons and upgrades usually taking priority, it wouldnt be to early. With the cost to reasearch them, (like 35 res or what ever?), it would still mean it takes some time to get which would fit in well with the fade rush.

    I dont think this would over power jetpacks at all as some people were concerned about, as all the upgrades say

    -30 res for faster longer burn
    -30 res for exo suit tech
    -30 res for exo jetpack tech
    -30 res railgun/big gun/wtfs

    your still looking at around another 100-120 res to make them powerful. Only then will they be end game tools. By then OH NOs should be coming along as well. You could get jetpacks out earlier in their current state and it would be overpowered.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,892Members, Squad Five Blue
    I would rather see jetpack movement be faster, it is very slow, and you have trouble dodging/changing directions in mid-air.

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    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
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  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 20 2012, 06:25 PM) »
    the resource cost balancing of this game is really complicated, but don't think that marines have been done some huge disservice because they can't get jetpacks for barely any money. if they could, the game would devolve into really dumb jetpack rushes all the time (not like the one breadgunner did earlier today...THAT was cool)

    I just find it as a practical matter that jetpacks are more akin to tier 3/onos/game ender tech than the tier 2/fade/game changer tech I think they should cost. IMO it should require either an Advanced Armory or Prototype as a prereq, but not both. If the current implementation is too powerful for a tier2 tech level then it can be nerfed a bit by either upping the PRes cost, reducing the JP capacity, reducing it acceleration, or reducing its top speed.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (swalk @ Feb 21 2012, 05:28 AM) »
    I would rather see jetpack movement be faster, it is very slow, and you have trouble dodging/changing directions in mid-air.


    No, that would be very unbalanced against the aliens. The jetpacks are situational and require skill. But then they are devastating. Try to catch a good jetpacker with a skulk or fade. Its really difficult. Sure a jetpack does not activate a godmode but I don't think, that this is bad.

    So besides the high costs for research it is fairly balanced.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    proto lab should be prereq'd by the robo fac, not the AA.
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  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    in an open environment with random terrain (think central drilling), jetpackers are near invincible

    what you are experiencing are jpers who rush off solo or in disadvantaged spots and get killed because of it.

    in terms of tech... sacrifice 3/3 upgrades and you almost have enough for jetpacks

    infact.. proto type + jp research is the same cost as a hive!
  • assbdaassbda Join Date: 2011-05-02 Member: 96737Posts: 253Members
    edited February 2012
    I believe in NS1 marine jetpackers we're immune to the onos stomp?

    In most long games i experienced the com would have jetpackers stay with a group of heavies, normally a 2:1 ratio (1 being jetpackers)
    Their job was to pretty much chase after an onos if he was running away, especially if it had just devoured a heavy.

    Jetpacks were alot faster in ns1 aswell
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    Vs skulks: Shoot them, they cost nothing and have no hitpoints, just shoot them, if you seriously die to skulks with any regularity you're doing something wrong.

    Vs fades: It makes getting the second hit harder for them if you're in the air, hell it makes getting the first hit harder too, anything that makes it harder for fades to hit you is good, and it isn't as though you can buy two shotguns at once, is it?

    Vs onos: Land on something other than the floor. A catwalk, a rock, a crate, the hive, a vent in the roof, just about anything can easily put you out of reach of an onos and you can shoot it with impunity.

    Jetpacks are not the be all and end all of marine tech like they were in NS1, but they're still very useful when the most equipment you can buy without them is about 25 res worth, putting you slightly below the lerk in terms of individual effectivness.
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Posts: 1,281Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM) »
    Suggestions
    1. Increase jetpack run time by about 5 seconds. This way marines can stay in the air, in a battle to actually have a good fight, instead of using it to just run away. Also with an extended flight time they would even have the option of reloading in the air, so that when they do have to land they arent just sitting ducks. Or more to the point when they really need to get out they can fly down a few hallways and ACTUALLY get to the next room without being run down in the hallway.

    NO!
    Gee, how aliens kill then marines, specialy onos player?

    QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM) »
    2. Reduce the proto lab to 25 res so that marines can get it mid game, about the same time as fades pop. Even if you don't increase flight time, having jetpacks almost the same time as fades would make a HUGE difference, and also balance the current fade devastation. That way mid game would be a real on the move, fast pace battle where fades and marines now have large moving capacity. It would setup late game for all the heavy weapons and be that much more interesting.

    Fades already die very quick, no need to recude protolab costs.

    QUOTE (GodofThunder @ Feb 20 2012, 09:44 PM) »
    Currently I just feel jetpacks aren't worth it. Anyone else think the same?

    No, totaly disagree with all your points, if i get a jetpack i fly to hives and kill them very easy.
    Because with a jetpacks the marines are like flys, they are annyoing but very hard to catch.
    I see so many times one marine kill a hive just with his jetpack and his axe.
    A onos can not reach the hive, a skulk get shoot very fast, a gorge can not spit up to the marine, a lerk and fade is the only way to kill that marine.
    Jetpacks should not morph a marine into superman.

    I like jetpacks very much, we are most times win if my team got jps.
    Fly up shoot a onos and go on, that simple, only a fade and lerk can be dangerous now.
    But with a shotgun, its not a big problem.
    Also fades can't stay in air, they have to wait until you fall down and even that you are a dangerous marine with a shotgun.
    Don't forget a fade have to hit you 2 times and if you kill a fade he lost 50 res, you only lost 20 res + your weapon...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Posts: 234Members
    edited February 2012
    You still can't rambo a fade just because you've got a jetpack, unless you're really good.

    That being said fades still seem unfair (unfair to the point where they're so easy it's not even fun to use), but yeah, if you go into a vent you should be aware that gives away the whole flying advantage.

    And onos... it's kinda meant to require more than 1 guy.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • StarkwindStarkwind Join Date: 2011-07-26 Member: 112394Posts: 41Members
    My biggest concern with jetpacks is that it feels a heck of a lot slower then NS1 and it feels less of an upgrade i remember getting a jetpack in NS1 and thinking "Oh F**k Yeah!"

    now it feels like the dam thing needs to warm up first before it gets my fat arse in the air then once it does it runs out of gas and says "Hey brah im outa fuel, you mad?"

    Just wish it had a heck of alot more propulsion when you take off.
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Price @ Feb 22 2012, 10:07 AM) »
    NO!
    Gee, how aliens kill then marines, specialy onos player?


    Fades already die very quick, no need to recude protolab costs.


    No, totaly disagree with all your points, if i get a jetpack i fly to hives and kill them very easy.
    Because with a jetpacks the marines are like flys, they are annyoing but very hard to catch.
    I see so many times one marine kill a hive just with his jetpack and his axe.
    A onos can not reach the hive, a skulk get shoot very fast, a gorge can not spit up to the marine, a lerk and fade is the only way to kill that marine.
    Jetpacks should not morph a marine into superman.

    I like jetpacks very much, we are most times win if my team got jps.
    Fly up shoot a onos and go on, that simple, only a fade and lerk can be dangerous now.
    But with a shotgun, its not a big problem.
    Also fades can't stay in air, they have to wait until you fall down and even that you are a dangerous marine with a shotgun.
    Don't forget a fade have to hit you 2 times and if you kill a fade he lost 50 res, you only lost 20 res + your weapon...


    You get jetpack you fly to hive and kill with axe? Do you know exactly how long it takes for one marine to kill a hive with an axe. A dam long time. What on earth were the aliens doing? Playing poker? If aliens arent responding to a hive attack, or have crags to keep it alive for awhile, then you need to find some better opponents.

    You fly up shoot a onos and go on? Please post a video of you flying up and in one flight killing an onos by yourself cause id really like to see it. You may get away to a ledge, but there is no way you can kill an onos by yourself. He would have to just stand there like an idiot and would require you using your entire clip, and then getting ammo from the commander. One marine can't kill an Onos. An Onos with half a brain would run away if he couldnt get you.

    Don't forget a fade only has to hit you 2 times. THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT! Any half decent fade will have teleported right up to you and got that first hit in before you can respond. As was stated before, the launch time for jetpack is not exactly quick so you dont leave a fade hitting range for a few seconds. This means you can very easily die to a fade even with jetpack,(you must be vsing some very bad aliens if you never die) and you also missed the point that there are alot of tunnels where jetpack becomes useless.

    Point is

    -Jetpack is only really useful in half a map( ie not tunnels), so there is generally no guanrantee of good use without dieing right away. For the cost it requires having a 50% chance of getting killed right away doesnt seem worth it. A fade on the other hand has the ability to instantly leave a bad situation giving them a greater survival rate in general.

    -A skulk with no upgrades can easily kill a marine with a jetpack. On the other hand a marine with no upgrades stand's a slim chance in hell of killing a fade.

    The cost simply does not out weigh the benefits in most cases. NOT ALWAYS, but most.

    The fade arguement has been done into the ground. Here we have a simple, easy and already existing item that can be the solution to fades. Unless people have a better idea, and im open to ideas, I really think reducing proto lab to get jetpacks out around the same time as fades, would make it a very balanced, fast paced, and exciting game.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Posts: 1,485Members, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, Community Dev Team
    The biggest problem with jetpacks is that it gives marines a strong urge to go rambo and try to defeat the whole alien team on their own. And then they die. Weird.

    Happens to me all the time, too :-)
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  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Posts: 610Members
    I'd like to see jetpacks become a little more like a jump-pack. Movement at higher velocity but much less flight time. It would allow marines to get to places they originally couldn't and to dodge aliens somewhat skillfully without simply being un-catchable. It's probably a bit too much like leap, though.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,892Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Feb 21 2012, 12:43 PM) »
    No, that would be very unbalanced against the aliens. The jetpacks are situational and require skill. But then they are devastating. Try to catch a good jetpacker with a skulk or fade. Its really difficult. Sure a jetpack does not activate a godmode but I don't think, that this is bad.

    So besides the high costs for research it is fairly balanced.

    You gotta keep in mind that the aliens will be faster in the final version of the game. Hell, celerity might even be implemented "soon".
    You already have a screnario where jetpacking marines have trouble retreating from aliens, then the aliens becomes faster, what then?
    You increase the base movement speed and acceleration of the jetpacks of course.
    It's impossible to catch a jetpacker with the current fade, but thankfully the devs are trying out the fade momentum mod.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • RokiyoRokiyo A.K.A. .::FeX::. Revenge Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1471Posts: 1,564Members, Constellation
    I dunno guys, I'm pretty happy with the current jetpack. It gives me a massive survivability boost against all comers.

    In an open space? Just fly straight up to get out of their vertical FoV.
    In a tight corrider? Just sprint a little before jumping to flee super fast.

    The power of the current jetpack implementation is all about positioning yourself intelligently so that you can abuse the fact that you're used a ranged weapon on a melee combatant who isn't used to tracking vertical movement.
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  • LaggasaurusLaggasaurus Join Date: 2003-11-13 Member: 22773Posts: 226Members, NS1 Playtester
    QUOTE (Starkwind @ Feb 22 2012, 02:17 AM) »
    My biggest concern with jetpacks is that it feels a heck of a lot slower then NS1 and it feels less of an upgrade i remember getting a jetpack in NS1 and thinking "Oh F**k Yeah!"

    now it feels like the dam thing needs to warm up first before it gets my fat arse in the air then once it does it runs out of gas and says "Hey brah im outa fuel, you mad?"

    Just wish it had a heck of alot more propulsion when you take off.

    Yeh this has a lot do with aliens being a lot faster in NS1, especially fades, though I suppose we don't have Movement Chambers in NS2 yet (which I don't really get why it's been left till last considering it's been the staple chamber in NS1 for the last 7 years :/).

    But yeh I get what you're saying they really lack the speed boost/skilled movement they gave in NS1, currently leaving them as a nice (rather expensive) addition instead of the game changing tier 3 tech they should be.
    [EUPT] lagga

    'Death gives no reason, So why should I, Death has no season, So I know i'll never die.' - Just Like Anything

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  • JaweeseJaweese Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58356Posts: 152Members
    edited February 2012
    Most importantly, jetpacks need to be fun to use. Here's what I'd change:

    - Fix the crouch/backwards speed scalars affecting jetpack flight.

    - Gravity needs to be -20. The jetpack gives the player half gravity, which doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that this wasn't needed for NS1 jetpacks indicates that the gravity in NS2 is too high.

    - The acceleration should be doubled.

    - Air friction should be removed or drastically decreased.

    - The max speed should be increased to about 12 (current speed with rifle is 8.8; NS1's speed was roughly 14.375 in NS2 units)

    - A better version of air control needs to be added (and not just for jetpacks). Here's how to do it:

    CODE
    function Player:ConstrainMoveVelocity(wishVelocity)
        
        if not self:GetIsOnLadder() and not self:GetIsOnGround() and wishVelocity:GetLengthXZ() > 0 and self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() > 0 then
        
            local normWishVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(wishVelocity)
            local normVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(self:GetVelocity())
            local distance = Vector(normWishVelocity.x - normVelocity.x, 0, normWishVelocity.z - normVelocity.z):GetLengthXZ()

            local airScalar = 0
            if(distance > 1.4142) then
                airScalar = 1
            end      

            wishVelocity:Scale(airScalar)

        end
        
    end

    And if these changes make the jetpack overpowered, just nerf the fuel.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GodofThunderGodofThunder Join Date: 2011-12-13 Member: 137815Posts: 119Members
    QUOTE (Jaweese @ Feb 23 2012, 11:38 AM) »
    Most importantly, jetpacks need to be fun to use. Here's what I'd change:

    - Fix the crouch/backwards speed scalars affecting jetpack flight.

    - Gravity needs to be -20. The jetpack gives the player half gravity, which doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that this wasn't needed for NS1 jetpacks indicates that the gravity in NS2 is too high.

    - The acceleration should be doubled.

    - Air friction should be removed or drastically decreased.

    - The max speed should be increased to about 12 (current speed with rifle is 8.8; NS1's speed was roughly 14.375 in NS2 units)

    - A better version of air control needs to be added (and not just for jetpacks). Here's how to do it:

    CODE
    function Player:ConstrainMoveVelocity(wishVelocity)
        
        if not self:GetIsOnLadder() and not self:GetIsOnGround() and wishVelocity:GetLengthXZ() > 0 and self:GetVelocity():GetLengthXZ() > 0 then
        
            local normWishVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(wishVelocity)
            local normVelocity = GetNormalizedVectorXZ(self:GetVelocity())
            local distance = Vector(normWishVelocity.x - normVelocity.x, 0, normWishVelocity.z - normVelocity.z):GetLengthXZ()

            local airScalar = 0
            if(distance > 1.4142) then
                airScalar = 1
            end      

            wishVelocity:Scale(airScalar)

        end
        
    end

    And if these changes make the jetpack overpowered, just nerf the fuel.


    Nice Jaweese, stabilising gravity, increasing takeoff and performance would be very cool. Hope the devs see this. But id say the general air speed is not so much the issue, perticulary because they are going to add speed boost later. They do have a pretty decent setup right now I think. The problem is the cost. They are very late game and half the time, your not even given the chance to get them at all. In later patches when you have so many more things to research, how are you going to pay for it all?

    With a reduction cost, even if you died quickly after getting a jetpack, because it didn't cost so much it wouldn't be so damaging. It would also change the balance of power fades currently have, as it would no longer be easy meals running around.
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