Kill Assist (TF2 Style)

TekJTekJ Join Date: 2011-08-13 Member: 116212Posts: 60Members
edited January 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Kill notification
Hey everyone,
I make this thread for know if community want a Kill Notification Like TF2.

Most people are quite irritating when they almost kill an enemy and a partner arrived to finish the job. They do not have the time an extra ressource, or point.
I propose some idea for the frag and gain resource system. Like in TF2


First Idea:
QUOTE
Marine A does 60% damage
Marine B does 40% damage

Marine A gets 60% of the points(20 points for a fade)
Marine B gets 40% of the points
Marine A gets 12 points
Marine B gets 8 points



Second Idea :

QUOTE
Marine A does 60% of damage but don't kill the skulk
Marine B does 30% of damage but don't kill the skulk
Marine C does 10% of damage and kill the skulk

Marine A gets : 1 ressource and 1 point
Marine B gets : 0 resssource and 0 point
Marine C gets 1/2 ressource and 1/2 point



Third Idea :

Like the second with a little difference !
QUOTE
Marine A does 60% of damage but don't kill the skulk
Marine B does 30% of damage but don't kill the skulk
Marine C does 10% of damage and kill the skulk

Marine A gets : 1/2 ressource and 1/2 point
Marine B gets : 0 resssource and 0 point
Marine C gets 1 ressource and 1 point


Fourth Idea :
Kill assists are worth half a point (half Ressource too) and will be counted as a full point every two of them. (Most like TF2)
QUOTE
Exemple : 2 marines make some dammage to a skulk,
Marine A does 90% of dammage but don't Kill the skulk
Marine B does 10% of damage and kill the skulk

Marine B Gets : 1 ressource and 1 point
Marine A Gets 1/2 ressource and 1/2 point


Work for alien too for healing for exemple if a gorge heal a fade
Fade get 1 ressource and 1 point
Gorge who healing get 1/2 ressource and 1/2 point.

If several people help in getting a kill, then the one who is highest in the list below will get the assist.
As alien :
Healing the killer at the time of the kill.

As Marine :
Lighting the victim on fire, provided they are still on fire at the time of the kill. (The last player to light them on fire gets priority.)

What are you thinking guys ??
Post edited by Unknown User on
image
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Comments

  • NakorsonNakorson Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Posts: 554Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I dont care much about the score but it would be nice to get part of the resources.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited January 2012
    I think players should be rewarded for doing damage, not for getting the actual kill, or rather, the last hit.
    And for healing. Basicly anything that helps your team win.
    Great discussion TeK.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Posts: 705Members, Constellation
    I say give the killer (the guy who closed the deal) the point.

    But give the max damage guy the rez4kills.

    definitely a cool discussion.
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    but then I can't kill steal :(
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  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Posts: 1,281Members
    edited January 2012
    QUOTE (Nakorson @ Jan 30 2012, 04:09 PM) »
    I dont care much about the score but it would be nice to get part of the resources.

    i think the same like Nakorson did, sharing resources while assist, would be very nice.
    It happend a lot you save somebody but he shoot/bite the enemy at last and get everything, same with Structures.
    Sure, the score is not important, but its just a bit stupid if you attack a RT as a skulk and the last seconds someone join in and did 3 bites and get the whole 15 scores ^^
    Its not important, but would be a "nice to have" feature.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,700Members
    QUOTE (Wilson @ Jan 30 2012, 07:51 PM) »
    but then I can't kill steal :(

    Or intetionally feed RFK to skulks, which is actually a pretty nice teamwork possibility. It's both nice for the skulk's enjoyment and also an interesting detail to spice up the fight outcomes and control in more advanced play.

    I think the score is the one thing that's very suitable for assists: Keep it without direct effect to the gameplay and you can use it to flexibly reward whatever actions necessary.
  • NcwNcw SWEDEN Join Date: 2012-01-22 Member: 141596Posts: 141Members
    Just reward them for doing damage instead of "killing blow".
    Same goes for "buildings".
  • Tool8Tool8 Join Date: 2012-01-01 Member: 139405Posts: 110Members
    I support this. Scorepoints for the one who gets the kill, but sharing the res would be perfect.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited January 2012
    I don't like this idea, and I think the assist mechanic is great in TF2. Allow me to explain!

    Natural Selection, as the name would imply, is more than an RTS-FPS hybrid game. It's also about evolving - within the course of each game, the players evolve. The commander helps them evolve using team resources, and the players help themselves evolve using personal resources. Players get personal resources when they kill off other forms of life (just like a predator-prey situation in real life), which can make them stronger and more likely to continue succeeding. If they get cocky or lack skill, their personal resource investment can go to waste and the seemingly weaker opponent gets a 'leg up' over the strong one.

    Splitting resources earned because of 'assists' adds complexity to a game that is beautiful because of its simplicity. It de-emphasizes the individual pursuit of skill and success in favour of a group effort. At a glance that seems fine, but enough of the game is already about 'group effort' - when you attack as a group and each of you gets 1 or 2 kills, you're almost getting your fair share of things and doing what you're supposed to do. The guys who shot 1 spit ball or 1 spore cloud didn't do as much damage as the fades and skulks, and it's hard to split 2 res in 10% intervals between several players.

    It might seem cruel and unfair, but I think the resource reward system for combat should stay the way it is. A better alternative (again inspired by TF2) might be to create more ways of awarding personal res, beyond just getting kills in combat. There are lots of other important things that are done by individual players (parasiting buildings/players, repairing structures/welding teammates, dropping spores on turrets, healing buildings and players....).

    The entire reason we have a scoreboard in games to begin with is so we know who is doing well and who isn't. It's supposed to be more a tool of psychology and learning than a way to decide if things are being fair to you or not.

    Oh, and another thing! In a game where you can medpack or healspray something in an instant to help it survive (and mitigate whatever damage was just done), getting the killing blow is actually much more valuable than what leads up to it.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883Members
    edited January 2012
    ^
    Natural Selection
    simplicity
    What?
    I don't think we've been playing the same game.

    Ironically, rather than encouraging teamwork as "kill assist" would imply, splitting resources might actually encourage rambo behaviour, since they don't want to share their hard-earned with anyone else.

    Kill-stealing isn't such a big issue in NS, since it is very difficult to do so deliberately, because you can't see the opponent's health.

    Split score though, add kill assists on the scoreboard, sure, fine.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    I don't even like the pres idea to begin with...

    or to be more exact, the pres reward for kills

    pres that is a shared split from building res nodes etc is cool to have in a team game

    pres for kills is already straying away from team element.

    i think i strayed from topic a little
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,700Members
    edited January 2012
    QUOTE (Harimau @ Jan 31 2012, 07:45 AM) »
    Natural Selection
    simplicity
    What?
    I don't think we've been playing the same game.

    NS1 really has a lot of strong simple rules that then get combined into a pretty complex game. For example the RFK mechanic is really simple: The guy who gets the kill gets 1-3 res.

    No sharing, no matter who was involved, where the frag happened or anything, just the guy who gets the kill matters. It's not even trying to be fair or to please everyone involved in a frag.

    The interesting part how to get everything out of that simple rule. You can feed RFK to players, you can deny RFK to an extend, you can actively hunt RFK or prioritize some other activity. Adding extra rules to that would often kind of water down the whole idea since you usually end up to the indifferent middle ground, sharing res and so on.

    I'm not sure how many people actually thought about controlling the RFK flow - it's kind of a drop of sand in a huge desert - but I definitely enjoyed thinking and playing around with it. For example if the aliens are low on res nodes and trying to hit something like the magical 50 res marker, I sometimes try to starve their RFK by investing more on medpacks and welders and sometimes even pulling marines back from favourable positions just to deny the RFK. I can even push a couple of medpacks to deny the skulk a frag even if the fade is going to finish a second later - just to deny the skulk the effective RFK and moving it to a fade than can't effectively use it anytime soon. That's how simple rules start creating pretty complex adjustments.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • derWalterderWalter Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Posts: 634Members
    +1 for splitting according to damage done.


    i would also think about res for hits, if a fade is godlike and takes 100 000 damage,
    the players who killed him actually deserve those res :P
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited January 2012
    QUOTE (Bacillus @ Jan 31 2012, 06:32 AM) »
    NS1 really has a lot of strong simple rules that then get combined into a pretty complex game


    Yeah this is kinda what I was getting at.

    You sorta touched on this too, but I want to say it my way-

    Right now the rule for 'pres from kills' is "if you kill a player, you get personal resources"
    After this change, the rule would be "if you kill a player, you and the teammates who attacked that player get personal resources, split based on the total damage each teammate dealt to that player before they died"

    See how it becomes 5 times as long in simple english? That's another hurdle for new players to overcome, and another tradeoff for the developers to worry about balancing. On top of that, it's not 'complete' like the current rule was - when do we stop counting all the damage dealt to a living player, who dealt that damage and so on? Should there be a whole bunch of timers and set unions going on to implement this?

    My approach is to skip all the compsci jargon in that last paragraph and say "Do we really need this? Is it appropriate for the game?"

    Another example of a simple mechanic is lerk flight. It works exactly like being noclipped except that you press and sometimes hold your jump key. Contrast with actual 'flight' games to see the difference.

    The game at large is complicated, but each part can be reasoned out or understood intuitively in a hurry. That's the recipe for a deep, replayable game that also has wide appeal.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,727Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited January 2012
    Whatever happened to the Commander Tax, where the commander receives a shares of the P.Res per kill? I prefer to see a separate commander P.Res pool implemented.

    For each kill, the player dealing the killing blow would receive 1 Pres, while the commander Pool also receives 1 Pres (for a total of 2, which is the current average RFK). Any Personal Res spent by the commander would be deducted from the Commander Pool until it is exhausted.

    It's a simple system that is fun, yet easy to balance.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Posts: 694Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Not sure about how I feel for kill assists, but I definitely think that Gorge's should be awarded for all the things they do for the team that don't result in either pres or score for themselves. Definitely for healing lifeforms, at the least.
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  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883Members
    To be perfectly clear, what are people talking about when they say "kill assists"?
    I'm talking about a simple addition to the scoreboard (and maybe the kill feed)
    Score | Kills | Deaths | Assists

    @Bacillus and internetexplorer:
    The funny thing is, I actually agreed that we shouldn't split RFK, and I thought that was quite clear.
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  • ArkantiArkanti pub baddie Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111781Posts: 694Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Harimau @ Feb 1 2012, 05:13 PM) »
    To be perfectly clear, what are people talking about when they say "kill assists"?


    I'm talking about the pres reward for kill assists, I don't think that inflation should happen unless values are shifted across the board.
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  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Posts: 780Members
    QUOTE
    Definitely for healing lifeforms, at the least.
    <- score for this, sounds like a great idea. maybe similar to the marine-armor-welding? in that case, some work-around is needed to prevent the passive regeneration from ruining the score-gain by restoring the last bit health.

    but what concerns me more is that there seems to be zero reward for placing mini-cysts for the commander (to allow him to place harvesters faster). if a person would care a lot about score, hydras seem like the only possible way at the moment.

    sorry if i'm slightly off-topic.
  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Posts: 705Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (Arkanti @ Feb 1 2012, 02:16 AM) »
    I'm talking about the pres reward for kill assists, I don't think that inflation should happen unless values are shifted across the board.


    Yeah i wasn't a big fan of the inflation either.

    I was okay with shifting the res to the person who did the max damage so kill stealing doesn't PAY.
  • TekJTekJ Join Date: 2011-08-13 Member: 116212Posts: 60Members
    And what are you thinking about Kill Notification. I mean, like in TF2 when you kill with a friend someone.
    it could be fun ?
    or not. :(
    image
  • NakorsonNakorson Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Posts: 554Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (TekJ @ Feb 1 2012, 12:53 PM) »
    And what are you thinking about Kill Notification. I mean, like in TF2 when you kill with a friend someone.
    it could be fun ?
    or not. :(


    TF2 does only display the killer + the person who did the most damage if i remember correctly. Would be nice to have this, but really just nice to have, the devs should focus on other things atm :)
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Arkanti @ Jan 31 2012, 10:35 PM) »
    Definitely for healing lifeforms, at the least.


    In TF2 the medic gets a point on the scoreboard for every 600 health they heal - something like that could work in NS2.

    pres should also be granted for bilebomb building kills, maybe? I dunno.

    Hydras are largely useless (just like OCs were in NS1), and the last thing I want is to see more people spending all their res on hydras. I'd prefer not to encourage this by giving them something in return (other than the 2 res when their 200 res worth of hydras miraculously gets a kill).


    QUOTE (Nakorson @ Feb 1 2012, 05:10 PM) »
    TF2 does only display the killer + the person who did the most damage if i remember correctly. Would be nice to have this, but really just nice to have, the devs should focus on other things atm :)


    there are actually lots of conditions for 'assisting' in TF2

    of course there's the case where you both dealt damage...but there's also the case where someone healed you or used some other buff to help you (jarate for instance)

    the same idea could promote gorges leaving boring safe zones and entering combat (something that people already do, but not nearly as much as they ought to)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,189Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Feb 2 2012, 12:29 AM) »
    Hydras are largely useless (just like OCs were in NS1), and the last thing I want is to see more people spending all their res on hydras. I'd prefer not to encourage this by giving them something in return (other than the 2 res when their 200 res worth of hydras miraculously gets a kill).

    Hmm... what if their rate of fire increased rapidly as a marine remains in their line of sight? So a marine trying to dash past takes severe damage, but one popping in and out from behind a corner can take them down just like now.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    QUOTE (Align @ Feb 2 2012, 02:35 PM) »
    Hmm... what if their rate of fire increased rapidly as a marine remains in their line of sight? So a marine trying to dash past takes severe damage, but one popping in and out from behind a corner can take them down just like now.


    it's still bad because "the way to use hydras" is still defined as a marine player doing something really stupid when you have made a hydra (running by it knowing that the game has been tweaked to make that a horrible idea)

    you can't exactly force marines to run past your hydra as a gorge
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,189Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    Well, what they were aiming for with static defences is to be speed bumps to hinder progress, rather than add to your kill count, so...
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited February 2012
    "Disabled res for kills..." in the latest patch

    I guess we know where the developers stand on this topic. Was that playtested at all? Seems like probably the most dramatic change you could make in terms of pacing and "having player skill matter at all."

    I look forward to whole alien teams suiciding as gorge/skulk and expecting to get a free fade each while we lose, game after game after game. Also missing the timing window where I can be a lerk before shotguns (now that their damage is set up properly to not be so punishing to a fully-upgraded crag lerk).

    edit: and after playing a couple rounds like this I can safely say it makes the game about 1000 times less fun. why bother evolving against a bunch of gimmicky hard counters like shotguns if you can't afford to pay back the cost by accomplishing things?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883Members
    edited February 2012
    I'd just like to point something out to you internetexplorer:
    - Stronger weapons/aliens require less skill to be just as effective.
    - Stronger weapons/aliens cost more.
    - So on an otherwise level playing field, RFK means that stronger (i.e. easier) weapons/aliens are more accessible.
    - Therefore, RFK actually makes player skill matter less (in player vs player engagements).

    RFK also leads to slippery slopes (depending on the added benefit of stronger weapons/aliens).

    Other than that, there's nothing I disagree with you.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    The crux of that (less skill to be effective) is only true because of other imbalances. The lerk especially has a huge skill ceiling and a lot of things stacked against it, but it costs more res than the shotgun that 1-shots it.
  • HarimauHarimau Join Date: 2007-12-24 Member: 63250Posts: 3,883Members
    edited February 2012
    The thing is, RFK exacerbates any imbalances that exist (as a result of power-purchasing). I think the lerk is more helpless than anything, so it's not the best measure. But the very idea of power being bought means that you require less skill to be as effective. The higher up the chain you go, the less skill you need to be as effective. And if your effectiveness is rewarded by resources which you can then put into more power, then there is a positive feedback loop.

    Naturally, your skill level probably hasn't changed, so playing a better weapon/lifeform just means you are more effective. What you are actually doing though is rewarding player skill (at lower tier), but you are doing it in a way that you are making skill matter less (at higher tier). The game is harder at the start, and easier at the end (I wish it were the opposite) - RFK means you reach that end point quicker.

    I think that RFK's primary purpose is to make players (and teams) feel rewarded, but as previously stated, it takes away focus from the overall strategy aspect (i.e. the importance of resource towers, etc.) and also leads to player- and team-level slippery slopes.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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