Natural Selection 2 News Update - NS2 Build 189 released

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  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Posts: 2,598Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester mod
    QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 2 2011, 08:27 PM) »
    pros - FINALLY after a year you guys have stopped trying to turn a wheel into an umbrella.

    cons - seriously, nano shield? its a multiplayer game! do we need to add in purchasable god mode? right off the top i hope this is HIGH up the tech map and costs 15-20. This is so game breaking I dont know where to begin. i mean its bad enough youve restricted alien movement SO much and on top of that added back in ns1 weapons handling. but now bad aiming marines wont be penalized due to godshield + medspam.



    and im still wondering wtf marines have unlimited sprint, but aliens get penalized for leaping 2 ft. now i know i dont kiss the devs arses every release but does anyone else realize how unbalanced that is?


    I'm starting to wonder whether or not you've actually played the beta. Currently, aliens win most of the games, so all your arguments about marines being overpowered are murdered. Also, you do realize it is, still, a beta? No? Well, now you do! There we go, problem solved. :)
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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    Nano shield is a kinda... obvious ability? It feels like it's been thrown in just to fix a specific problem, rather than addressing the cause of said problem.

    On the other hand, it doesn't seem that useful. You can't use it very much and +50% damage resistance doesn't really mean much when people die in a matter of seconds anyway. It's better than nothing, and probably annoys the hell out of alien players who have to go up against it, but I don't see it causing a major unbalance.

    However I do think that the game could do with a few less balanced but annoying elements, and I don't think that throwing in extra things to fix problems is a good way to go about building a game. Better to try to resolve the problems than add a specific patch to that problem and call it a feature.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    - Skulk wallwalk is f*d up, behaves strange now. - dunno why you touched it. (has more "magnetism" or so)
    Also makes his movement harder to predict as marines, seems warping a bit.

    I haven't noticed any change on that o.O
    It has always been a bit sticky. But now we have walljump, that can make movement harder to predict.
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    - Fade atkspeed is too fast, or dmg too high also it seems like the atk range is bigger? (it feels like it was never as easy to solo the whole marine team as it is now)

    I agree, the attack rate is perhaps a bit too high.
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    - Lerk spike hitdetection seems very inconsistent sometimes, dunno

    I didn't notice this either, did you account for the spread of the spikes?
    They can be very unreliable weapons, but strong if marines have no armor.
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    - Shotgun range should be a little longer, its stupid that i suddently cant hit anything after like 6meters(bullets just disappear into air), also dmg drop at range should be slightly lowered. While it is nice for skulks that you can kinda only be oneshotted if you are in biterange(ok if you have bad luck with the spread maybe 2meters) - its frustrating as marine... Its only usefull against fades(so you sometimes get lucky instakills), and that only if you are in a group of at least 2 or 3, since a fade can kill you before you can make even a 2nd shot as solo marine.

    I agree, more range, and damagefalloff should make it better. I have to play more to say anything about the new spread.
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    Its currently a weapon i dont like to use/rarly use it if one is lying around(is also usually not researched in scrims by a lot of teams, or at least usually only after gl - if you think aliens will get some fades because you failed to kill the 2nd hive fast enough)... but lmg/gl usually works nearly as good/better for me against fades. (and gl is also awesome against structures while the lmg part of it counters the whips)

    SG is essential if you wanna take down a well playing fade imo :P Unless he suicides on 5 GLs ofc.. lol
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 11:22 PM) »
    - Mac spam is still a problem for repairing stuff, i would limit it to 1mac per cc (a little more health) [and make it maybe even available from start - if it dies you can respawn it with energy. upgrades stay at the factory. The (in my eyes useless) Mac-mines can be resupplied for energy, or regenerate - whatever.]

    I agree, repair rate got a bit better, now we need to limit to only one mac repairing one structure at a time.
    It will also reduce the need to spam them.
    Right now there is some reason to just spam MACs, you get alot of mines during the game. They restock more mines over time. For free ie.: energy doesn't scale with resource situation.
    Even though the mines are quite useless right now, I saw one skulk run over 5 mines without dieing :P
    The CC needs it's old HP back, it goes down so fast, and with random spawns(higher chances of baserushes for both sides, if teams spawn close to each other), it really goes down very easy. Alot of very short games going on at the moment.

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    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,847Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer admin
    Marine sprint is no longer unlimited, as of Build 189.

    Checkins from today:
    O Lowered Fade swipe range from 1.5 to 1.2 to match visuals
    O Extended range on shotgun and increased scatter a bit
    Charlie Cleveland
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  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 158Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2011
    Best build so far imo. Much smoother and the frame rate drop in late game I used to have is almost gone. Still there is room for improvement though and I overall like the way the game is developing. I like most of the changes and additions. My favs are: Infestation and Hydras on ceilings and walls. Sounds and blood effects. Slower more natural feeling movement speeds. The marine and Alien movement speeds feel perfect now. And I like the fact we have AA at last. Its been a real good experience seeing it develop over the last couple of years. A few points that may or may not have come up.

    Aliens

    1. I was one shot killed with a shotgun as a Fade a few times tonight. Aliens seem a lot weaker overall which may be good for the overall balance but as I have stated before we cannot and should not gauge the balance of the game based on public servers, especially in a beta. With the wide range of skill levels and knowledge of the game, the only way to truly test the balance is for 2 teams of long time (maybe) clan players to play round after round to test the problems with balance. But we shouldnt be too worried about balance until UW have added all the stuff that is still left to put into the game.
    2. The Fade is frustrating to play because of the constant bouncing marines also and it seems to need to be much closer to cause damage to marines and also structures which feels wrong given their arms/claws are huge and should have the range to match.
    3. Gorges are very easy to kill now which is frustrating. I'm also having trouble getting past any Hydras built like there is an invisible barrier. Put 3 Hydras across a corridor and I just cant get past them. I often get stuck on them trying. I often get stuck as a Gorge and can barely move on other objects now, even infestation.

    Marines

    1. Not noticed many problems so far. I still hate the Marine jump spam and it often keeps me away from the game. Its so frustrating to ambush a marine just for him to spam the jump key forcing the player, especially as a Skulk to take bites at their feet. It looks ridiculous and at this point is the only aspect of NS2 I hate.
    2. Am I the only person ever in the history of NS not to like the jetpacks? Dont feel they fit at all or are needed. The Exo suit is the perfect foil, and the balance to the Onos in my eyes.

    Good work UW, looking forward to 190.

    Ta

    Sal
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,482Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    Jetpacks have usually been the Onos counter, where the EXO is the Lerk and Fade counter most likely. EXO vs Onos seems rather evenly matches I guess. And jetpacks adding more mobility to stand on even foot with Lerks and Fades?

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  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Posts: 1,240Members
    QUOTE (Angelusz @ Dec 2 2011, 07:48 PM) »
    I'm starting to wonder whether or not you've actually played the beta. Currently, aliens win most of the games, so all your arguments about marines being overpowered are murdered. Also, you do realize it is, still, a beta? No? Well, now you do! There we go, problem solved. :)


    gameplay in a beta isnt a good enough sample size to determine whether or not one team is "better" months ago when you people were complaining that the fade was overpowered, it was nerfed considerably. and lo and behold as you say aliens are still winning. so does that stand to reason that fade wasnt overpowered after all? lol

    anyway. glad full sprint was removed (and no i havent played the last 2 beta releases as either I couldnt find a game, server was full, or the fps was crippled due to the release.)
    just going off what was released in the latest patch notes.

    as for nano shield, i still dont agree with it but thats up to the devs to decide on. i personally think that cat packs are great and provide a fair boost to marine. nano shield + decent marine team + decent com = alien stomp. but thats just my opinion again.

    and thanks flay for clarifying. bout to hop in a game and check out the new patch lol.

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  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Posts: 1,240Members
    QUOTE (luns @ Dec 2 2011, 07:41 PM) »
    charlie still refuses to adapt ns1 movement.


    i dont mind the no bhopping, but i guess im spoiled by how smooth ns1 movement "feels". I can jump and use momentum to turn around and shoot something behind me whereas in ns2 i feel stuck to the ground and inhibited. almost like movement has a half second delay.
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  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471Posts: 2,112NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    Haven't had a chance to do a proper game with 189 yet but in general:

    1) I would definitely give marines purchasable mines and give the MAC a more suitable replacement ability. It's a lot more fun and much easier to do strategic placement as a player controlled marine. I'm not sure if I like the continuous beeping of mines after they've been placed. I liked in NS1 how you could place mines in unexpected places so retreating fades could run into them without knowing they were there, or skulks going through a vent. A compromise would be to change the sound to a quick "beep" that plays occasionally. This way you won't just die out of nowhere like NS1, but will still run into them if you're not paying attention.

    2) Gorges can spit structures everywhere now. Figured this would go in eventually as it is a good change. Time to pretty up hive rooms.

    3) I like the idea of having 1 MAC per CC, making them tougher, and starting the round with one. If replacements are made at the robo factory, they will become a juicy target for early skulking so marines will need to defend them more. They're pretty much a throwaway toy right now and marines don't care very much if they die since they're so weak. Having 1 per CC would make them more important.

    It'd be nice to see MACs get upgrade paths of their own, or trade offs with their role. You could go the "light support" role where they're weaker, but are fast and can do things like a portable scan (ala the intro to aliens 2) when entering a room to search for ambushing skulks. Also have them weld faster than in their standard mode (auto-weld ala starcraft 2 is also useful). Alternatively, you could give them a "battle mode" where they get armor and their welder is exchanged for a gun and some other ability. This is getting a bit I&S, but something could be done to make MACs less fragile.



  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    i like the idea of capping Macs to CCs

    would it be groundbreaking to have 2 per CC so that the macs can repair each other?
  • minibananaminibanana Join Date: 2009-09-03 Member: 68682Posts: 79Members
    I just tested out 189, and 3 minutes into the game all of a sudden i hear a loud noise and black screen afterwards. I am still able to see who is getting killed, and also use the console.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,688Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 3 2011, 01:54 AM) »
    I haven't noticed any change on that o.O

    It has always been a bit sticky. But now we have walljump, that can make movement harder to predict.


    Dunno, zeikko also says he doesnt feel any difference... hmm, i got a feeling that its currently harder to walk at some places (roofs and some walls with more geometry/props), also the skulk seems bigger... e.g. i cant get him to gestate anymore at places like the glass corridor vent, or at least i cant find the sweet spot anymore.. no matter how i try it. - maybe im just suddently incompetent. ^^

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 3 2011, 01:54 AM) »
    I didn't notice this either, did you account for the spread of the spikes?
    They can be very unreliable weapons, but strong if marines have no armor.


    Yeah true there is pretty good spread, and i think they also have a dmgdrop depending on range, kinda like the shotgun? (too lazy to look into the lua now)
    Guess its fine, maybe i got too used to 188 with the wrong dmg type :P

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 3 2011, 01:54 AM) »
    SG is essential if you wanna take down a well playing fade imo :P Unless he suicides on 5 GLs ofc.. lol

    Yeah sg is ofc still one of the best/ the best weapon(s) against fades atm...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Posts: 295Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    QUOTE (aeroripper @ Dec 2 2011, 09:55 PM) »
    I would definitely give marines purchasable mines and give the MAC a more suitable replacement ability. It's a lot more fun and much easier to do strategic placement as a player controlled marine. I'm not sure if I like the continuous beeping of mines after they've been placed. I liked in NS1 how you could place mines in unexpected places so retreating fades could run into them without knowing they were there, or skulks going through a vent. A compromise would be to change the sound to a quick "beep" that plays occasionally. This way you won't just die out of nowhere like NS1, but will still run into them if you're not paying attention.

    I agree, but instead of beeping you could also make it visually noticeable with alien vision.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Posts: 934Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 2 2011, 05:22 PM) »
    - Shooting with lmg at whip, it seems like bullets dont hit sometimes, even tho i shot perfectly at it (seems to happen especially at the top 50% of the model)



    I've had this problem with hydras and whips since they were each first implemented. Maybe it has something to do with the flexible/animated top parts of these structures? An alien RT has a wiggly moving top, but it seems much more rigid (and much wider, of course) so there may not be an issue. The long, spindly structures are almost impossible to hit, though.
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  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    In game someone said the whip was bulletproof when unrooted
  • TwiggehTwiggeh Join Date: 2010-09-24 Member: 74165Posts: 508Members
    QUOTE (Mac1OMan @ Dec 3 2011, 04:18 AM) »
    I agree, but instead of beeping you could also make it visually noticeable with alien vision.


    Oh please no! Who would by a mine that glows red? This would just be another reason to never turn alien vision off.
    image
  • PricePrice Join Date: 2003-09-27 Member: 21247Posts: 1,281Members
    Very good job guys!
    i love the new hit effects aka blood (green blood of aliens looks fantastic).
    Also the hydras sleep now (ns2hd said) is a great idea.
    Can't wait to see onos ingame in 190.
    But don't forget to sleep ^^
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  • WizardHUNWizardHUN Join Date: 2011-10-23 Member: 128903Posts: 71Members
    Important: >>>> ARCs are bugged, they are not shooting sometimes! <<<<<<

    Classic Mines are obviously something which need to be implemented. Since marines have no JPs, cant clear the vents, its hard to shoot in with GL and the only option to secure the base is to build turrets or call back marines. Also lerks can get them easily by shooting from a far spot, out of range.

    About MACs: Since the new patch i loose 2x more macs than before. If you want to limit to only one, give the MAC faster repair rate, ability to survive (automatic nano shield) and maybe this: Electric shock: when activating, skulks are frozen for 2 seconds (cooldown 15 sec) so they can survive but not meant to be a tactical weapon. Thats an option too.
  • Cyborg16Cyborg16 Join Date: 2006-11-18 Member: 58656Posts: 44Members
    Can we whack aliens with the butt of the shotgun yet? Useful ability when needing to reload, and it's kind of odd that this works with LMG but not SG even though right-click doesn't do something else.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Posts: 1,883Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2011
    Flamer feels like it has more of a role now, but it is far too expensive to make it worthwhile.

    I like that you can't spray around your feet anymore as it causes loads of damage, so can't we push this weapon further and make it more powerful as well as greater self hurt?

    Going solo with this weapon is useless, but I could see a great advantage in a team role as a structure/infest killing tool that you can also use to create walls of fire by shooting at the ground.

    You could even up the cost to 40 if you did this - like a sneaky player version of the ARC.

    It would obviously be devastating against alien lifeforms if you did this, but any sneaky alien jumping down on a guy would have a massive advantage unless the flamer guy pulled a pistol.

    The more of a role and purpose you give these weapons, the more defined and easier to understand they become. Then they start to become useful.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • PerestroikaPerestroika Join Date: 2011-07-24 Member: 111955Posts: 86Members, NS2 Map Tester
    ^I like the idea of being able to create walls of fire, maybe like 1 foot high

    could be too annoying though if it team damaged
  • Fluid CoreFluid Core Join Date: 2007-12-26 Member: 63260Posts: 399Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Fades.

    I'm just comming from a few games on one of HBZ's servers, playing mainly as fade. Those of you who think the fade is weak, what exactely is the problem? I don't see myself as a very good player, but I seem to have no problem getting large killing sprees. I think the key is to play carefull; you are an assassin, not a tank. A typical attack doesn't last more then 2-3 attacks before I blink out. If I got high health and someone else is close I blink to them and do maybe 2 attacks before retreating. You are really deadly, but you are easily killed. Shotguns and flamers are your worst enemies.
    When I eventually died last game, I was to greedy killing rines siegeing our hive. The highest risk while playing carefull is actually the flamer, since you play with alien vision on most of the time, there is no indication of the flames. You can easily end up blinking into the next guy, hitting twise and find yourself with no energy to attack or blink out. I also find sentrys painfull, I can't take out a sentry covered by another in a decent time (need to take 2-3 hits and retreat and heal).

    Overall, I see the fades as very balanced now. Yes, you can kill alot of enemies and not die. But you are really fragile, one misstake and you are dead against good marines.
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  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 3 2011, 01:53 AM) »
    Nano shield is a kinda... obvious ability? It feels like it's been thrown in just to fix a specific problem, rather than addressing the cause of said problem.

    On the other hand, it doesn't seem that useful. You can't use it very much and +50% damage resistance doesn't really mean much when people die in a matter of seconds anyway. It's better than nothing, and probably annoys the hell out of alien players who have to go up against it, but I don't see it causing a major unbalance.

    However I do think that the game could do with a few less balanced but annoying elements, and I don't think that throwing in extra things to fix problems is a good way to go about building a game. Better to try to resolve the problems than add a specific patch to that problem and call it a feature.


    The Nano shield is really usefull for buildings because they have more HP. But for the Tier 1 Marines it is pretty useless now, but when the Melee upgrades for the aliens are gone it will make a big difference with or without Nano shield than it is now. Also if you think about a JP flying around with Nano Shield or a EXO locked down 2 Railguns shooting the Onos <3.

    It can be a important and good buff if you use it right and if you can't find a right scenario to use it don't use it.
    I don't know if MAC/ARC can use the Nano Shield but if yes it could be a good distraction (MAC) or it may be the difference between hive down or not (ARC).
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  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,716Members
    QUOTE (Fluid Core @ Dec 3 2011, 12:31 PM) »
    Fades.

    I'm just comming from a few games on one of HBZ's servers, playing mainly as fade. Those of you who think the fade is weak, what exactely is the problem? I don't see myself as a very good player, but I seem to have no problem getting large killing sprees.

    As far as I've understood, the problem is more about where to improve as a fade. It's very easy to go for the killing spree in newbie vs newbie game, but as the skill goes up, the fade doesn't really go that much up in potential. The basic blink mechanic is really easy (maybe even too easy) to use, but it doesn't leave enough space for improving your game. It's once again the marine aiming skill vs alien movement skill issue where aliens haven't got enough potential skill improvement to match the marine skill of aiming.

    Someone with better understanding of present NS2 correct me if necessary.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    QUOTE (Price @ Dec 3 2011, 10:23 AM) »
    Also the hydras sleep now (ns2hd said) is a great idea.


    Whats this? Hydras sleep?
  • SkvateSkvate Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9892Posts: 90Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    edited December 2011
    Main reason for marines failing against fades now seems to be server-rate and fps going down as the game progresses. When performance improves, i would think marines would have a good advantage most of the time, and the game would have to be rebalanced again.
    Aliens seem to have a hard time finishing off the marines if they have full upgrades.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,688Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2011
    @Bacillus
    Its not as bad as you make it sound, if you ask me...

    Would like to hear some suggestions, at least i dont think about myself that im capped by movement yet, also i dont think aim skill increases scale better or higher than movement/positioning on alien side. But what do i know...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,716Members
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (Koruyo @ Dec 3 2011, 02:07 PM) »
    @Bacillus
    Its not as bad as you make it sound, if you ask me...

    Would like to hear some suggestions, at least i dont think about myself that im capped by movement yet, also i dont think aim skill increases scale better or higher than movement/positioning on alien side. But what do i know...

    Yeah, I might be totally lost on this one. My game still isn't playable to a point where I could have any useful first hand experience on anything. I'm mostly throwing somewhat educated guesses based on posts of people I know to have a solid understanding of the whole NS concept.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    This is annoying. PLEASE limit number of ARCs which can exist at one time.

    image
  • Mkk_BitestuffMkk_Bitestuff Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12407Posts: 210Members
    Also realize that the fps still is not very smooth for many people, and all of the aimbot marines that I knew have no real intention of playing NS2 currently.. From what i have seen of the current NS2 movement system aliens (except the fade) would stand no chance against marines with that kind of aim, no matter what you do. The only thing that does sort of balance it out currently is the fact that the marine movement is also equally sluggish. I still believe that both sides need movement and air control very similar to NS1, plus the eventually decided upon skill based movement.
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