HUD Minimap

DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Posts: 933Members, Reinforced - Shadow
edited November 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
as of the twitter HUD video
Hey guys, just a little feedback on the new HUD video that you've got up. In general, I like the new HUD. Being able to see research and active upgrades will be lovely, as well as seeing the res count without checking the score tab. It will also be easier to tell when we do and don't have a commander.

However, I'm not so keen on having a mandatory minimap. Maybe I'm crazy, and if anyone disagrees with the sentiment of this post, I lwelcome you to post your thoughts.

Why? Simply because it's hard to see around. It's a large opaque blob on the screen that obstructs the field of vision. "what's this, Deadzone? Surely it's not THAT big, and surely the huge hold-key-to-view full map is much more inconvenient!"

Even though the minimap is relatively small on the screen and off in a corner, this is still going to impact play. In most FPS, you can get away with a minimap because you can expect the action to be taking place at eye level.

As a different kind of example, in Battlefield 3, the minimap is on the bottom of the screen. Why? Because the terrain is so varied and detailed with foliage that you often need to be able to spy a few telltale pixels to spot an enemy. He will often be on a hill or in a building above you, not even counting aerial vehicles. On the other hand, you will rarely get caught by a threat at your ankles. If you have such a vantage point that guys are coming at you from below, you'll be looking at a downward angle already.

One of the draws of playing NS2 is an alien that walks on walls. I don't know about you, but I want as much peripheral vision as possible, and I don't want a map that's going to make me miss a protruding claw/snout in the corner of my screen. When an alien is bouncing around chewing my kneecaps off, I am already looking down at him, and a bottom-oriented map would not be as annoying.
And at least with the full map, I have control over when it's present on my screen.

Also, I rarely find minimaps useful for navigation. Yes, I can see if I'm taking the west exit of a room. However, in order to figure my way from one end of the map to another, I still need to pull up the full map to ensure I'm heading in the right direction and not going into a dead end/locked door/whatever.

My proposed solution is to have a bindable key to toggle the display of the corner minimap, or to make the minimap more transparent, or to move the map to the bottom of the screen. Maybe I will grow to like the minimap, but until then, I'd like the option to make it go away.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,096Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team admin
    toggle-able or more transparent. think CS map. simple, transparent, yet highly useful in competitive matches.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

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  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    I like the minimap. I guess they will probably add in a toggle option for it. Hopefully players will be able to customize their HUD as much as they want through the lua files without it being reset by the server.
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  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Posts: 391Members
    Ns1 had the constant mini-map in the top right of the screen and it wasn't all that big of a deal.

    But there are always going to be people who really dislike having objects clutter the screen so i guess the way Day of Defeat:Source does it would probably be best. Where there is no mini-map by default, if you press M then a mini-map fills the upper right of the screen, and if you hit M again then the map fills the rest of the screen, showing you the entire map. That way people who don't want a mini-map on the top of the screen can be happy, and the rest of us can see our surrounding area without having to hold C all the time.

    image
  • konatakonata Join Date: 2011-08-24 Member: 118296Posts: 862Members
    You need the minimap. If you played NS1, you realised how useful it was.
    ~ Konata

    À tellement bien mentir, on finit par se croire
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator, Co-Lead NS2 CDT Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Posts: 1,761Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer admin
    QUOTE (konata @ Nov 12 2011, 04:11 AM) »
    You need the minimap. If you played NS1, you realised how useful it was.


    For once, I agree with you.

    If NS2 fails, follow my Nuke From Orbit Guide.

  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,766Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hope its toggleable in options for some of us who don't find it useful though. Big map ftw!
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  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    I'm not sure a local minimap is so useful, it shows what you already see in your screen. "Hey here is a hallway on the left, let's check the minimap to check if this hallway is really on my left !". It might be useful because you can sometime see things you're not supposed to, but that's not really a feature.

    Anyway, toggleable and everybody is happy !
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,866Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 12 2011, 10:12 AM) »
    I'm not sure a local minimap is so useful, it shows what you already see in your screen. "Hey here is a hallway on the left, let's check the minimap to check if this hallway is really on my left !". It might be useful because you can sometime see things you're not supposed to, but that's not really a feature.

    Anyway, toggleable and everybody is happy !

    Yeah I also have a bad feeling about being able to see more than you "should" on the minimap.
    With marines LOS changing to a radius around marines instead of FOV, they would easily see skulks sneaking up behind them?
    On topic, I really like the minimap, and I think it's needed. I would like to see it as transparent as possible, while still being able to see it. Since it takes up a larger portion of the screen. I don't crave a toggle function for it, if it is transparent enough.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,322Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 12 2011, 06:26 AM) »
    Yeah I also have a bad feeling about being able to see more than you "should" on the minimap.
    With marines LOS changing to a radius around marines instead of FOV, they would easily see skulks sneaking up behind them?
    On topic, I really like the minimap, and I think it's needed. I would like to see it as transparent as possible, while still being able to see it. Since it takes up a larger portion of the screen. I don't crave a toggle function for it, if it is transparent enough.


    yeh, that fact negates that the minimap creates some dead zone in your view, you actually see more. but a toggle able option sounds reasonable to me (at least some console command until the main menu gets reworked), and since i'm implementing the new marine hud i will make sure that we have that option (it's anyway just a few lines of code). but i'm pretty sure almost nobody would disable that minimap, since it gives you a real advantage :)
  • konatakonata Join Date: 2011-08-24 Member: 118296Posts: 862Members
    edited November 2011
    In NS1 basically, at any point a marine could see an alien or a structure, it appeared on the minimap. Anytime a structure such as an RT was being attacked, it would also flag up red. That's the jist of it and that's why it's so useful, it didn't give any unfair advantage, it just allowed you to play the game as you would expect it to, giving unit line of sight on seeing enemies.

    And by as you expect it to, that's how RTS games work folks and this is an RTS/FPS blend.

    PS. A radial cone would not work as in first person mode you can see more than that. So restricting the RTS view to half of the FPS view is unintuitive and quite simply put, dumb.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Posts: 3,817Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester admin
    If we can make it as transparent as possible whilst keeping all the details clear, we'll do that. Ideally you should be able to make out everything on the map but if something moves behind it you should at least get a sense of that.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,754Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Will the HUD minimap rotate with the marine (like in CS)? I think it would be more useful, and differentiate it from the "map".
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,379Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Heroman117 @ Nov 12 2011, 07:34 AM) »
    without having to hold C all the time.

    C is a weird default bind in any case, I have it setup on my middle mousebutton, so I can switch to it while still moving at top speed trough the map. And if I see something that needs some pain coming their way I simply release the middle mouse button and starting firing :)
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • Fanda TrotlFanda Trotl Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103726Posts: 4Members
    Give us a slider in options for minimap transparency please
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,866Members, Squad Five Blue
    Thanks for the responses, Schimmel and Insane. I'm really looking forward to seeing this ingame :) Keep it up!

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,322Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Nov 12 2011, 09:19 AM) »
    Will the HUD minimap rotate with the marine (like in CS)? I think it would be more useful, and differentiate it from the "map".


    i would say no, since it would be more confusing (and i would have to code it :D )
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,866Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Schimmel @ Nov 12 2011, 05:12 PM) »
    i would say no, since it would be more confusing (and i would have to code it :D )

    I actually think it would be more useful for the individual marine, as it would be easier to see how many degrees you need to turn to find track of a spotted skulk. You should look into it if it's not too much work :P But people will split on this one, I guess. So maybe toggle :P?
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • konatakonata Join Date: 2011-08-24 Member: 118296Posts: 862Members
    A rotating minimap is NOT beneficial. The idea of the game being MS at the top AS at the bottom completely confuses that up. You also need to know where your fixed points are, it's imperative for communication between a commander with a static minimap to a peon too.
    ~ Konata

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  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,866Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (konata @ Nov 12 2011, 05:53 PM) »
    A rotating minimap is NOT beneficial. The idea of the game being MS at the top AS at the bottom completely confuses that up. You also need to know where your fixed points are, it's imperative for communication between a commander with a static minimap to a peon too.

    Thats why I said it should be toggleable. You still got your large map for map navigation. It could be beneficial in some situations, as you can much easier calculate the degrees you have to turn when you spot an alien on the map. But I guess thats a matter of taste. Again why I suggested it to be toggleable.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • DeadzoneDeadzone Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17911Posts: 933Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thank you for the responses, Schimmel and Insane!
    I'll be honest, I could not remember if NS1 had a persistent minimap or not. All I knew was that after playing the NS2 alpha/beta without one for so long, it looked really really weird to see it there. I've gotten used to hitting a key for my map, y'know? :P

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  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471Posts: 2,062NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    Would love to see a HUD where you can move around, or turn off elements in the HUD menu. Would also love to see features from the menu mod in the mod forums like a resizeable chat box and text size. Then add some presets like "normal, reduced, competitive".

    Normal: Everything is default positioning and size.
    Reduced: Elements like upgrade icons and commander indicator are shrunk in size but still look aesthetically pleasing.
    Competitive: Elements are reduced to their bare minimum information display. Fancy artwork like the minimap borders and the like are removed. It may not look as pretty, but screen space is maximized.

    I imagine this is all post v1.0 stuff anyways, but would be awesome to have.
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 12 2011, 06:47 PM) »
    Thats why I said it should be toggleable. You still got your large map for map navigation. It could be beneficial in some situations, as you can much easier calculate the degrees you have to turn when you spot an alien on the map. But I guess thats a matter of taste. Again why I suggested it to be toggleable.


    I know what you mean but this has nothing to do with calculating degrees.

    A rotating map has really no clear benefit. If you see a alien on a rotating map it gets hard and confusing to say where it is because the fix points on the map aren't fix anymore.
    You need first to alocate your position with the map to clearly define the position of the alien. Also if you move and the alien also you have the map and the alien moving.
    Also the communication can be hard.
    If I say something is comming from behind. (shown on my mini map) it would mean maybe left for you then. If you use south/behind and north/front on the static minimap.

    The pro of a non stationary square minimap is that you have a bigger map because it rotates with you it can be used as a circle map. But it can also be a contra and decreasing the map range. Both players are standing at the same point with a [ ] static (you see the top but not the left) or < > non static (you see more on the left but less on the top) map.

    If rotating minimap can be toggeled marines should get a kompas on the screen so they can comunicate clearer then.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • CrispyCrispy Jaded GD Join Date: 2004-08-22 Member: 30793Posts: 3,225Members, Constellation
    edited November 2011
    In NS1 you used the local minimap to see other structures/enemies that you didn't have line of sight to, either because a teammate was spotting them or an Observatory ping had. Really, really useful to check your minimap when entering a Hive location, for example.

    [Edit] NM it's already been said.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • DestroidDestroid Join Date: 2011-10-25 Member: 129240Posts: 122Members
    +1 for toggle or static, I always preferred using a static map in the battlefield games, although a static map does require a clear symbol showing your facing.
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