Solution to tech points argument?

SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
edited September 2011 in Ideas and Suggestions
Prototype lab uses tech point?
I've been reading some of the threads in the mapping section and people are debating how many tech points a map should have. Everyone seems to have good points, but I think the biggest problem is that Marines just have no use for tech points right now because they don't need a 2nd CC to unlock any tech. If prototype labs and MAYBE even robotics factories arms labs were required to be built on tech points, then it would re-introduce the concept of fighting over tech points that would probably help break the stalemates of the game in the end. After all, they're called "tech points" not "command points".

Essentially, it would bring back the fight over who gets to utilize the end-game tech. I'm curious to see what the devs and you guys in the community think about this.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Posts: 1,016Members
    edited September 2011
    +1

    I'll support any idea that makes the fighting more intense
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  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    there defiantly should be some reason for marines to build ccs.
    image
  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Sep 18 2011, 05:08 PM) »
    there defiantly should be some reason for marines to build ccs.


    Well my point was that you're not making them build CCs, but you're still forcing them to fight over these vital "tech points" that maps are designed around, which retains a lot of the original strategy of the game without being a silly sort of limiting. A second CC is essentially useless now, there's little to no reason for having marines implement a second location to command from (though the option is good), and instead of forcing players to unlock things by building new ones (and redesigning the tech tree in the process) you only restrict them to building certain upgrade buildings on these vital tech points. The Prototype lab seems perfect for this since 1) it hasn't been implemented yet and 2) it's a super-awesome building with super-awesome futuristic technologies like jetpacks, exosuits, and eventually nukes, so it seems logical that this kind of functionality would require whatever it is that CCs and Hives require that keeps them confined to a tech point.
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  • SmellyTerrorSmellyTerror Join Date: 2011-08-22 Member: 118027Posts: 22Members
    Makes sense.

    Right now Marines can deny vital tech to the aliens by a kind of intermittent map control - and it's a fun mechanic. Aliens can only deny marine tech by shutting down all the resources (ie almost complete map control) or assaulting the enemy base.
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Posts: 1,072Members
    +1 This is awesome.

    The marine turtle conundrum was really irking me. This has the potential to make the game much more interesting. It also provides marines the option to not expand, if they think they can win with shotguns and flamers.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,135Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    This means both sides will never be at full tech. And once a team gains the advantage it will be near impossible for the other team to make a comeback.

    Teeter totter balance.
  • l3lessedl3lessed Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Posts: 374Members
    edited September 2011
    I agree. This is not a good solution from a balancing perspective.

    I personal feel the tech points should just be giant power transformers. The marines have to build them to get power throughout a certain area. The aliens have to destroy them to take out the power within an area. It would make the fighting for them more intense because once you lock down a teach point, you have control over a few adjacent rooms. None of this power node for every single room, which seems to end up being redundant to a degree. It will be, in a way, like a marine hive because without it marines lose power in all the areas the transformer powers. This will also make power packs more critical because do keep a room up and running once a transformer goes down, you'll have to use a power pack until you can reclaim reclaim and rebuild the power transformer/tech point.
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  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    while that's an interesting idea, if all of the tec points are transformers... where would the marines command. also while it take down the amount of power nodes which i like, that can be solved by creating power nodes the control multiple rooms or surrounding corridors. I do think that protoype labs should be required for teams to have two tec points.
    image
  • DarkOmenDarkOmen Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7148Posts: 600Members
    edited September 2011
    I agree entirely with the OP about how the Prototype Lab should need to be built on a tech point. Maybe the structure needs some sort of interface to the environment's computer system to function?

    However, I would argue that the Robotics Facility should not require a tech point:

    - The commander should get access to MACs before the tech tree requires Marines to leave their base.
    - The spawn direction of robots give reason enough as to why placement of this structure should be carefully considered.
    - Everything that is produced from the Robotics Factory is mobile anyway.
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  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    edited September 2011
    QUOTE (IeptBarakat @ Sep 20 2011, 01:12 PM) »
    This means both sides will never be at full tech. And once a team gains the advantage it will be near impossible for the other team to make a comeback.

    Teeter totter balance.


    Well, this is where the decision to implement 5 or 6 tech points comes in. I'm not arguing for either 5 or 6, in fact I think maybe we should have some with 5 and some with 6, but my idea isn't exactly where that argument should take place. It only tries to ALLOW that argument to be even relevant, because right now it's not.

    QUOTE (DarkOmen @ Sep 20 2011, 06:47 PM) »
    I agree entirely with the OP about how the Prototype Lab should need to be built on a tech point. Maybe the structure needs some sort of interface to the environment's computer system to function?

    However, I would argue that the Robotics Facility should not require a tech point:

    - The commander should get access to MACs before the tech tree requires Marines to leave their base.
    - The spawn direction of robots give reason enough as to why placement of this structure should be carefully considered.
    - Everything that is produced from the Robotics Factory is mobile anyway.


    Yeah those are the same reasons I put a big "MAYBE" before "robotics facility". Looking at the Tech tree I think the Arms Lab would be a better choice for the first tech point expansion. The location of the arms lab makes no difference on how useful it is, so it could easily be confined to a tech point simply to encourage expansion. If you want weapon/armor upgrades, push out and earn them. Adds another dimension to the upgrade race as well I think. I'm much more certain about the prototype lab though. I'll edit the OP.
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  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    if you did that though... you'd have to limit the aliens in some manner
    image
  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Sep 20 2011, 10:29 PM) »
    if you did that though... you'd have to limit the aliens in some manner


    Possibly, though you could try to balance the game in other ways instead, and embrace the asymmetry of gameplay.
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  • IronsoulIronsoul Join Date: 2011-03-12 Member: 86048Posts: 806Members
    +1 to this idea, sorry if I didin't read it completely, but the general gist of having a prototype lab require a tech point is great, and also the general idea of a prototype lab.
  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    QUOTE (Steinhauer @ Sep 20 2011, 10:32 PM) »
    Possibly, though you could try to balance the game in other ways instead, and embrace the asymmetry of gameplay.

    how so?
    image
  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Sep 21 2011, 05:32 AM) »
    how so?


    I dunno you tell me. So many people have balancing ideas, the problem is it's very difficult to balance the game before everything is in, so it might have to hold off for a while.
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  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Posts: 491Members
    I think that implementing this idea has some merit. it does force the marines to expand. the one flaw i see is in requiring the arms lab to use a tech point.

    the marines must expand ASAP because they cannot get vital armor upgrades.

    the aliens can go crag/shade/shift, it wont matter since the aliens get the whip regardless of tech choice. a simple 15 res for melee one and they get 2 hit kills. all they need to do now is harass the tech points and the marines will never get the armor they need.

    I still think this is a good idea, just has some kinks in it.

    also, if this idea gets implemented then 6 tech point maps are probably best. 5 tech point maps will lead to a huge tech advantage for one team.

    on second thought, that could be fun. each team get two relatively safe tech points on their side. in between then is the hotly contested 3rd tech point.
  • CygoneCygone Join Date: 2011-05-29 Member: 101528Posts: 222Members
    QUOTE (thefonz @ Sep 21 2011, 02:37 PM) »
    I think that implementing this idea has some merit. it does force the marines to expand. the one flaw i see is in requiring the arms lab to use a tech point.

    the marines must expand ASAP because they cannot get vital armor upgrades.

    the aliens can go crag/shade/shift, it wont matter since the aliens get the whip regardless of tech choice. a simple 15 res for melee one and they get 2 hit kills. all they need to do now is harass the tech points and the marines will never get the armor they need.

    I still think this is a good idea, just has some kinks in it.

    also, if this idea gets implemented then 6 tech point maps are probably best. 5 tech point maps will lead to a huge tech advantage for one team.

    on second thought, that could be fun. each team get two relatively safe tech points on their side. in between then is the hotly contested 3rd tech point.


    +1
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Posts: 1,042Members
    How about making the prototype research process scale in speed depending on how many tech points you have? Adds a dynamic feel to the process.

    Having 3 nodes will cause you to research at normal speed, and you gain/lose 25% research speed depending on how many nodes you have with respect to the 3. (5 nodes would give a 50% boost in research speed, while having only marine start node means you research at only 50% of the default time length being twice as long).

    Or make certain research options become only available when your team has at least "x" amount of nodes. Maybe you can only start researching exo armor with 5 nodes?
  • HybridclawHybridclaw Join Date: 2003-11-03 Member: 22271Posts: 1,016Members
    QUOTE (Ironsoul @ Sep 21 2011, 04:13 AM) »
    +1 to this idea, sorry if I didin't read it completely, but the general gist of having a prototype lab require a tech point is great, and also the general idea of a prototype lab.

    Makes sense, if the aliens require a second tech point in order to gain access to higher life forms, so too should the marines in order to gain access to jetpacks and heavy armor.
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  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 22 2011, 12:48 PM) »
    How about making the prototype research process scale in speed depending on how many tech points you have? Adds a dynamic feel to the process.

    Having 3 nodes will cause you to research at normal speed, and you gain/lose 25% research speed depending on how many nodes you have with respect to the 3. (5 nodes would give a 50% boost in research speed, while having only marine start node means you research at only 50% of the default time length being twice as long).


    An interesting idea, though the problem is that things only have to be researched once, so the speed gain wouldn't help enough alone to warrant putting much investment into controlling a tech point. That's how I see it anyways
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  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    The other approach would be to make the CCs more useful to the FPS side of the game, this sort of thing has been said in CC posts before, I will keep it short.

    CCs should be useful 'out of the box', single IP (stops IP rush) and single access armoury point (no upgraded kit, accessed by one Marine at a time), upgraded with PG (only goes to other CCs).

    It becomes a useful outpost straight away, not a point on the map that needs babysitting to setup and a load of res to make it a viable launch pad for taking the fight deeper into alien controlled map areas.

    Just making taking the point an upgrade requirement means that you make two points to defend and limit the Marines ability to attack and force res spending onto more defence. Marines don't have the speed to spread their defence over multiple points without the stated res spending.

    So I like the idea, but with out big changes to the Marine res mech, it will really hurt the Marines gameplay.
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Posts: 1,042Members
    How about restricting the purchase of certain items with tech point requirements? As in a certain number of nodes need to be active to allow the purchase of items. For example, in a turtled down game of marines with only a single node, they cannot buy exo suits.

  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Sep 23 2011, 08:25 AM) »
    How about restricting the purchase of certain items with tech point requirements? As in a certain number of nodes need to be active to allow the purchase of items. For example, in a turtled down game of marines with only a single node, they cannot buy exo suits.


    They already tried that idea and didn't like it apparently, granted there weren't as many features back then. Also it feels a bit more restrictive, and unjustifiable. What about having ANOTHER CC allows these guys to research X upgrade? Makes more sense if the building the upgrade comes from requires some kinda of extra power or something from a tech point to operate, to me anyways. You get a very similar effect as your idea but it feels less restrictive and makes a little more sense.
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  • RemedyRemedy Join Date: 2011-06-16 Member: 104735Posts: 133Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    + Over nine thousand to this.

    In NS original each class for the Aliens had 4 skills to gain though at the beginning of a match they had two, because they only had one hive.
    So Aliens would have to get 2 more hives to have all their upgrades and evolves available to effectively win the game.

    Seeing that UWE has crossed over the marine commander from NS1 to both teams having commanders in NS2,
    shouldn't they cross over the Aliens Tech tree from NS1 over to both teams in NS2?

    Why not make both teams based around 1st, 2nd and 3rd Tech upgrades?

    If one team tries to tech up to 2nd Tier the opposing team can either try to destroy the CC / Hive or try advance to their 2nd Tier to match that move.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    edited September 2011
    that is something i suggested about 1 month ago (and i guess others did even before me).

    there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers

    for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.

    maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)

    once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.

    edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.

    familiar but different:

    image
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited September 2011
    QUOTE (Schimmel @ Sep 25 2011, 01:18 PM) »
    that is something i suggested about 1 month ago (and i guess others did even before me).

    there are a few structures that define a way in the tech tree: for aliens: 3 types of chambers

    for marines you also have 3: robotics, prototype lab, arms lab.

    maybe it would be smarter to add the whip and the obs as well to this list. but im not sure about that yet. if i remove all whip upgrades, but instead put all damage + defense upgrades there, you have an equivalent to the arms lab (would be just fair). but maybe it would be wrong to directly compare alien and marine tech tree, and instead define "steps". such a step is not really a tier, but in combination they open powerful possiblities: prototype lab + arms lab, robotics + arms lab or proto + robotics (= T2). well, and all 3 of the is T3. for aliens nothing would change, except i would untie life forms from hives and make them instead more powerful through abilities (which are tied to hives, like it was in ns1)

    once i have some time i would like to implement that (or a variation) in my mod to see if it works.

    edit: it was actually pretty easy to make that, just needed to change a few values and untie the command station from the tech point.

    familiar but different:

    image


    I...really like the way that looks! The only thing I'm worried about is that with com chairs no longer bound to mapmaker-defined locations, teams will be able to place them in much better protected locations than their hive counterparts (Such as the "always-powered" hallway between MS and DC in Summit, or in the little detour away from Reception in the middle of Crevice on the same map which has only one approach).
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    always powered areas are generally a problem and should get fixed.

    and, relocating costs time, money and is risky. if you manage to do it, you are rewarded :)

    and since we have now more tech points on a map (5 on small map summit), at least the "lock down" strategy wouldn't work that well, like it was in ns1
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    I definitely think that Com Chair moving shouldn't be implemented before the ONOS is, even in mod form. If a Marine team manages to spam IPs, PPs, and a CC in a one-entrance environment like Crevice's offshoot, I can't see how on earth Kharaa would be able to break through that to win. Current stalemates go on for long enough in Summit, and that's with marines in a wide-open base with two easily accessible entrances.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    well, that could be a problem. but the onos would not be the ultimate solution to stalemates I bet. just in combination with other life forms. the game mechanics should allow, without onos, to win an uneven game: you have 6 times more res than the losing team. both teams have no access to T3 (if you want to call it like that) which means resources (and individual skill + team play) should be the deciding factors. currently the biggest problems are, that teams don't starve on res fast enough at 1 base, aliens forget very often to utilize bile bombs, and general performance prevents people from playing properly. since sentries always hit, they are much stronger currently than they should (compared to players)... but i don't want to go off topic now, this has been discussed plenty of times :)
  • SteinhauerSteinhauer Join Date: 2010-07-17 Member: 72493Posts: 132Members
    I never even thought of removing the CC from a tech point! I'm not sure how I feel about it though... I'd still kinda like robotics facility not to be tied down... who knows
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