Alien Commander threatens NS2 Survival

uber_earpuber_earp Join Date: 2008-12-16 Member: 65784Posts: 3Members
Please don't do the ALIEN COMMANDER.

The beauty of the NS is the dichotomy and distinction between how each team operates. If you guys do implement an Alien Commander in this, I'm telling you now that people aren't going to play it for long.

Look, we love NS, heck I was one of the uber nerds that bought the Special Edition Account! Everyone is looking forward to this game because of how fond we are of the NS as we know it. So it is foolish to think that the same level of love and excitement NS will exist if its premise is altered so dramatically.

It's all about expectation. Expectation is based on a reality we know now, and that is the unique game style of NS1. Then it follows that the expectation must only be a "better" NS1. Too much change will be dangerous. And I'm already have second guesses about my purchase, putting hope in a reverse mod of this engine to NS1 original game play.

I sincerely hope you take this to heart. And PLEASE, let me know if anyone else feels the same way.

I'm not try to be threatening or antagonistic. (So any rage posts in response betray a user's intemperance, and illegitimacy of his/her claims)
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Comments

  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,205Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    The game can still be fun and asymetrical even with an alien commander... Let's see how they implement it first, hm?
  • BadMouthBadMouth It ceases to be exclusive when you can have a custom member titl Join Date: 2004-05-21 Member: 28815Posts: 1,018Members
    I believe the aliens commander was already said to be in place by the time the special edition orders went up. I hope you're not complaining because you missed that bit of info?
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  • jimethnjimethn Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72595Posts: 1Members
    When they balanced WoW by making everyone good at everything they ruined the game. OP is correct: the fact that the teams were so different was what made the game good. Even if one team was unbalanced in certain situations, that just made it exciting as a player to know "we're probably gonna get stomped on this map but let's try our best!"
  • AezonixAezonix Join Date: 2009-12-20 Member: 69727Posts: 30Members, Constellation
    I HATE CHANGE AWRGAWHRGAWHRGAWRG.

    But really, you're complaining about something that you haven't even seen in practice. It could always be scrapped later. I mean, the game hasn't even hit alpha yet.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Posts: 3,365Members
    Why is this in the NS1 forums?
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  • PapayasPapayas Join Date: 2010-07-01 Member: 72219Posts: 812Members
    QUOTE (Aezonix @ Jul 20 2010, 08:17 PM) »
    I HATE CHANGE AWRGAWHRGAWHRGAWRG.

    But really, you're complaining about something that you haven't even seen in practice. It could always be scrapped later. I mean, the game hasn't even hit alpha yet.


    For the 1st bit: LOL

    And for the 2nd bit: I completly agree with you.
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  • mohdhmmohdhm Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73039Posts: 18Members
    i dont think itèll work. just look at WoW.

    There are 2 factions, just like NS with unique classes. Then they decided to give each faction the otherès unique class and the game became SOOO boring. Symmetry is boring.

    now i dpnt think itèll kill ns, just dampen the fun
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710Posts: 6,947NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators mod
    *PHASED* to NS2 Gen Disc.
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  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Posts: 3,660Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    When I realized that the aliencommander builds RTs using floaters I was sad.
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  • Donner & BlitzenDonner &amp; Blitzen Join Date: 2010-03-08 Member: 70879Posts: 182Members
    I can't count the number of times I've needed to post a rolleyes smiley in the forum only to realize there isn't one.

    Yes, asymmetry in the teams is part of what made NS1 fun and unique, and giving aliens commanders makes the two teams more similar in function. BUT, we also don't know what OTHER features that UWE has yet to introduce that will help offset this and push the teams farther apart again.

  • cmc5788cmc5788 Join Date: 2009-10-06 Member: 68959Posts: 291Members
    QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Jul 27 2010, 11:31 PM) »
    I can't count the number of times I've needed to post a rolleyes smiley in the forum only to realize there isn't one.

    Yes, asymmetry in the teams is part of what made NS1 fun and unique, and giving aliens commanders makes the two teams more similar in function. BUT, we also don't know what OTHER features that UWE has yet to introduce that will help offset this and push the teams farther apart again.


    Or for that matter what the role of the alien commander will even be. Right now all you can do is look at a list of unavailable upgrades and spam builders, which is pretty barebones. There's still plenty of room for UWE to make the alien vs marine commander roles distinct within the context of an RTS overlay.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,521Members
    edited July 2010
    the alien commander will be awesome - and i honestly think it will make ns2 a better game. it will allow the game have more strategy

    but either way - why dont we wait an see - scrapping things is the easy part



    if there is anything affecting the survival of ns2, its people that are unable to come to terms with change.


    you aren't even willing to give it a fair go.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Posts: 712Members
    Honestly, I was a little taken aback by how overtly symmetric the two teams are with respect to the commanding aspect. What really irked me was the fact that both commanders use a proxy to build secondary structures (drifters/MACs). However I do concede that this is the first build and hence probably is overly symmetric for more technical reasons.

    I hold hope that as the alpha evolves we will see the two teams begin to diverge in dramatic ways :D
  • GhostieBGhostieB Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73258Posts: 1Members
    QUOTE (uber_earp @ Aug 20 2009, 04:24 PM) »
    ...threatens NS2 Survival

    ...I'm telling you now that people aren't going to play it for long.


    Is it really necessary to make dramatic claims about the game's success or failure based on one change? Nobody will base their enjoyment on one single feature, and the drama only loses you credibility. Projecting your opinion on others doesn't make it more valid.
  • Mr. EpicMr. Epic Join Date: 2003-08-01 Member: 18660Posts: 820Members, Constellation
    I dont think so.


    The alien team appears to have the most change, but it seems well planned and I think it can work. The hives now get upgraded, they spread creep, and the alien commander does general upgrades/chamber duty. The commander does the econ/macro, while the gorges get to tend the creep and the chambers. Gorges support the commander directly, so there is actually going to be additional gorge strategy going on :D

    I think it will make alien gameplay a LOT less chaotic, and if done properly has the potential to make the games a lot more dynamic and responsive in terms of strategy. I think way more complicated things can happen when you can distribute the workload to multiple commanders, and it also reduces the impact of bad gorges and or bad single commanders.

    I can't wait to see it come together :)
  • Dickbeard the PirateDickbeard the Pirate Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73082Posts: 62Awaiting Authorization
    It makes sense for the aliens to have a hivemind controlling everything, even more sense then it makes for marines to have a commander overseeing operations

    First I heard of Natural Selection was in a thread about this game, Battleswarm, that pits a team of 6 FPS marines against two RTS players commanding a horde of bugs. Basic sentiment was "NS already did this better"

    I was surprised to find that NS2 is nothing like that, it's not FPS vs RTS, it's more FPS + RTS vs FPS + RTS. I'll be the first to admit my opinion isn't really valid because I never played the first game, but I think that's a great formula.

    I do agree with the sentiment that each team should have different abilities, but then I realized they already do. Marines have a choice between various types of guns, alien players have classes to choose from, gorge builds and maintains, skulk running up/along walls and roofs, and even one that flies and can launch clouds of gas.
  • Dash-ElDash-El Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72925Posts: 26Members
    +1 to diversity
  • RulgrokRulgrok Join Date: 2007-04-04 Member: 60559Posts: 196Members
    I am just so sick of reading about everyone who wants NS version pretty. if you want to play natural selection then go do it - you love the game play so much you just seem to want it stamped with pretty graphics.
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  • KompatriotKompatriot Join Date: 2010-01-14 Member: 70144Posts: 26Members
    I like diversity, but I also think symmetry has its place. Also, the commanders are not symmetric, as has been pointed out.

    If I say anything else, let me say this: wait and see!
  • slayer.faithslayer.faith Join Date: 2007-12-10 Member: 63127Posts: 70Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (JAmazon @ Jul 28 2010, 02:45 PM) »
    Honestly, I was a little taken aback by how overtly symmetric the two teams are with respect to the commanding aspect. What really irked me was the fact that both commanders use a proxy to build secondary structures (drifters/MACs). However I do concede that this is the first build and hence probably is overly symmetric for more technical reasons.

    I hold hope that as the alpha evolves we will see the two teams begin to diverge in dramatic ways :D


    I love being a gorge so I shed a little tear when i could not build res towers. ;-)

    But most pub ns2 games I play these days noone builds res and that really gimps the alien team (having two fades but 1 res tower, *sigh*). Much as i lurve my gorge, if this gets fixed then im happy for the gorge to be a hydra dropping, heal machine.

    The alien life forms are so radically different to the marine side that my :-( at the two commanders quickly went away once i realised that this just changes the role of the gorge to hydra-dropping and team support. Push him forward as a team helper. (I dont see that the marines have that role, so asymmetry is still there).

    Im scared that my little fatboy will be up in the front lines, but if that is what it takes to defeat the marine vermin then im willing to waddle up the front.

    Also, given the beautiful lua interface to the core game, it wont take long for someone to code ns1 in ns2. ;-) (I for one will love to get away from hl1 textures. ;-)


  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Posts: 310Members, Constellation
    The biggest aspect of a commanders duty (rine or kharaa) has yet to be implemented. I am referring to Dynamic Infestation and the Nano-Grid power systems. These are what will be a huge part of how the opposing teams' comms develop strategy in a RTS fashion. I think having an RTS-like layer for both teams will really help make the game better in the end. The single comm of NS has been shown to be a great gameplay feature. NS2 will expand upon this.
  • ReKReK Join Date: 2004-08-30 Member: 31058Posts: 708Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    QUOTE (Rulgrok @ Jul 27 2010, 10:05 PM) »
    I am just so sick of reading about everyone who wants NS version pretty. if you want to play natural selection then go do it - you love the game play so much you just seem to want it stamped with pretty graphics.


    That's not what it's about, at least for me.

    I love a lot of the changes I'm seeing, but I really do think this one is a bad idea. As everyone else has said before, it's the differences between the teams that made NS1 what it was. An alien comm was always joked about before, but I never would have seriously considered myself.

    I loved the alien team setup in that all of you are free individuals working towards the same thing, guided by instinct (hivesight) and teamwork. The marines operated more like a tactical unit, with orders coming from one place and being carried out either by assigned people or by whoever could do it.

    Reworking the alien building/upgrades system, sure I could see that. Add an all-out RTS alien comm...

    I will wait until I see it fully implemented and working, maybe they'll surprise me, but I'm really skeptical.
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  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Posts: 1,260Members
    QUOTE (uber_earp @ Aug 20 2009, 07:24 PM) »
    Please don't do the ALIEN COMMANDER.

    The beauty of the NS is the dichotomy and distinction between how each team operates. If you guys do implement an Alien Commander in this, I'm telling you now that people aren't going to play it for long.


    Only now do you want to ###### about what was well known for like a year?

    NS2 is NOT NS1 + GRAPHICS. And by being distinct from its predecessor it is guaranteed that no matter how popular NS2 gets, there will always be NS1 servers to play on.
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  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Posts: 4,618Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    The alien commander is not that far removed from the single-gorge model of NS 1.0. I like the idea, I think the comm is too important a role to be asymmetric. Having a comm on both teams means more players who are good at comming in general.
  • TacotaTacota Join Date: 2009-10-12 Member: 69027Posts: 83Members
    QUOTE (uber_earp @ Aug 20 2009, 07:24 PM) »
    Please don't do the ALIEN COMMANDER.

    The beauty of the NS is the dichotomy and distinction between how each team operates. If you guys do implement an Alien Commander in this, I'm telling you now that people aren't going to play it for long.

    Look, we love NS, heck I was one of the uber nerds that bought the Special Edition Account! Everyone is looking forward to this game because of how fond we are of the NS as we know it. So it is foolish to think that the same level of love and excitement NS will exist if its premise is altered so dramatically.

    It's all about expectation. Expectation is based on a reality we know now, and that is the unique game style of NS1. Then it follows that the expectation must only be a "better" NS1. Too much change will be dangerous. And I'm already have second guesses about my purchase, putting hope in a reverse mod of this engine to NS1 original game play.

    I sincerely hope you take this to heart. And PLEASE, let me know if anyone else feels the same way.

    I'm not try to be threatening or antagonistic. (So any rage posts in response betray a user's intemperance, and illegitimacy of his/her claims)


    Also, if the game is too much the same, it won't seem so much as a sequel as just a high-res textured NS1. That may make a lot of people get bored faster, but who knows... But eitherway... They made NS1 so well, they know what they are doing. Give them a chance.
  • TheGivingTreeTheGivingTree Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12070Posts: 511Members
    QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Jul 28 2010, 12:52 AM) »
    Only now do you want to ###### about what was well known for like a year?

    NS2 is NOT NS1 + GRAPHICS. And by being distinct from its predecessor it is guaranteed that no matter how popular NS2 gets, there will always be NS1 servers to play on.


    So basically the entirety of everything that is NS2 is summed up in the fact that both teams have commanders now, and if you dislike this ONE aspect you dislike every single new thing and change they've added into NS2?

    Seriously guys he's bringing up ONE issue, NS2 is built upon MANY changes, rendering the entire go play NS1 argument completely invalid, and cliched.
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  • nsixnsix Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73086Posts: 5Members
    +1

    Another vote for NO ALIEN COMMANDER!!!
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Posts: 2,439Members, NS2 Playtester, Community Dev Team
    This change irks me too. I am trying to put my faith in the UWE team about it, but in the back of my mind I wonder if some of the stuff that made NS2 great, like the asymmetrical command structures / team hierarchy was actually accidental rather than by design, and if they had had the chance would they have killed off some of these great features in the original?

    I'm hoping that they know what they are doing, and I'm hoping that they will be able to add enough to make the alien commander a compelling feature of NS2 rather than this weird new feature that doesn't really fit in with the rest of the world of NS.

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  • KashmirKashmir Join Date: 2009-08-31 Member: 68659Posts: 20Members
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (TheGivingTree @ Jul 28 2010, 06:11 PM) »
    So basically the entirety of everything that is NS2 is summed up in the fact that both teams have commanders now, and if you dislike this ONE aspect you dislike every single new thing and change they've added into NS2?

    Seriously guys he's bringing up ONE issue, NS2 is built upon MANY changes, rendering the entire go play NS1 argument completely invalid, and cliched.


    +1

    Throwing the "Go play NS1 then" in the OP's face is childish.

    For the record I'm not really keen on the alien comm at the moment either. It feels a bit tweedle dum, tweedle dee.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • BrainbeatBrainbeat Join Date: 2010-07-27 Member: 73259Posts: 7Members
    At this stage I would have to say I would prefer the old model too as it gave more variety. NS1 was played in at least 2 ways depending on the map type
    1. FPS+RTS with a commander for the marines with the aim of the game to work as a team to destroy each others bases
    2. Just FPS with no commanders and each player fighting mostly solo gaining xp for killing the enemy which you could use to upgrade yourself to gain new weapons armour and abilities. Ultimately there was still the aim to destroy each others bases but would only happen later in games.
    3. other fun maps like gorge rush which was a race of who could get to the end course first while being a gorge only but there were others which I forget at this time

    From my experience the most played maps and servers were mostly of type 2 as it removed the need to rely on good commanders or gorges but still punished bad players for dying too easy and giving XP to the enemy. So from this perspective having commanders at all is not needed.

    This said some of the most satisfying games of ns1 were when the whole team would play as a team to grind out a win under a good commander or leadership.

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