Will NS2 be more like the good old NS?

LordHorusNLLordHorusNL Join Date: 2009-08-31 Member: 68658Posts: 11Members
Will games last more than 20 minutes.
I was wondering if the developers could release some more information about the type of gameplay we can expect from natural selection 2.

I played NS for years "since the first release" and had to stop a few years back before the combat gametype was released, i remember playing these awesome games that could take up to 4 hours with heavy combat and great tactics. So today i thought Hell! why not install NS again and have some fun, this is however not what i found!

Matches now take no more than 20 minutes on most pubs, structures can be built in 3 seconds "i remember when it was more like 30 and that kicked ass" and alien movement has become so fast it looks like they are moving at warp speed.

It became clear to me today that all that was good about NS is dead, and before i pre-order my NS2 SE i would like to know if it is in some way going to return to that great experience i had all those years ago? or is it going to be the same mess that is NS 2.0+?



Also whats up with marines not being able to "build" structures? will normal marines only be able to engage in combat now? (i love running between sites in NS repairing structures) and what do other players think about the gameplay type/speed? NS 1.04 or NS 2.0+
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Comments

  • JAmazonJAmazon Join Date: 2009-02-21 Member: 66503Posts: 712Members
    Long games still do happen occasionally. I know exactly what your talking about, but the fact that EPIC games are now the rarer it almost makes them more special now. But the answer to your question is we don't know.
  • garvanigarvani Join Date: 2009-09-02 Member: 68678Posts: 97Members
    edited September 2009
    Having not played NS in over 4 years i didnt think about Combat (had just come out as my NS playing days came to an end, awww). I based my pre-order off my original memorys of long battles and didnt consider that NS2 could be based off combat, I hope they are going back to the roots and the "classic" mode they have mentioned is indeed classic NS.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • JerkstoreJerkstore Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67880Posts: 17Members
    They've said that they're not even working on "combat" mode for the release of the game:

    "No, we're not planning to include a combat mode in NS2 at this time. We expect that the community will use our modding tools to recreate Combat along with many other game modes."

    I think 30 minute average for matches is a good target. Any shorter and games become too hectic, any longer and it will become boring playing so many long matches. I play Left 4 Dead matches and they average about 90 minutes long... everyone gets tired, nobody wants to play more than once a night, and the game is just boring after a while. I think NS2 should be more dynamic, allowing for fast strats to end the game quickly, or for long, drawn out epic battles. Would be awesome if teams could specialize in one or the other.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Posts: 2,817Members, Constellation
    You're looking back with rose colored glasses. Usually long games happened because one side was turtled up so heavily they could defend indefinitely despite the opposing team's map control and domination.

    That's not "epic;" that's bad game design.

    Games should not last 4 hours.
    sentrysteve.txt
  • GrandMoffVixenGrandMoffVixen Join Date: 2007-04-30 Member: 60765Posts: 20Members
    QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Sep 3 2009, 10:42 PM) »
    You're looking back with rose colored glasses. Usually long games happened because one side was turtled up so heavily they could defend indefinitely despite the opposing team's map control and domination.

    That's not "epic;" that's bad game design.

    Games should not last 4 hours.


    Says you.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471Posts: 2,084NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    edited September 2009
    It's a lot better when those epic games happen every once and a while instead of drawn out battles with OC\turret spam. The game should be designed with the possibility of long games (with appropriate resolve on each side to win along with comparable skill) and short games depending on how well each side performs. I like the idea of slowing the average game time to at least 20 minutes (along with decreasing marine rate of deaths), but any longer needs to be decided by how well the players are doing.

    If a team is lazy or doesn't communicate enough they should lose in the classic mode. Outside of all that, I'm hoping they'll get the right mix in NS2 so you still get a feeling of accomplishment after winning a hard fought game.

    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • NolSinklerNolSinkler On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Posts: 1,604Members, Constellation
    I would imagine that NS2 will not be like the good old NS. This is because it is a different game, and is meant to be different; it is meant to improve upon the original Natural-Selection, isn't it? So ideally it will be better.
    image
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Posts: 581Members
    The average game should not be longer than 20 minutes.
    CAL-ns|Austin
    CALeague - Natural Selection Division Admin

    image Co :: xHomicide
    Creator of ns_bhop (best ns map ever made), ns_duel, initial cal-ns plugin, nslearn.org website,
    and Capture Point (a 2 week source mod that a couple dozen people downloaded)

    http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/
  • ctdctd Join Date: 2009-06-01 Member: 67611Posts: 106Members
    1 hour+ games FTW :)
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Posts: 920Members
    I'm all for hour+ games as long as it's back and forth, where each side still has a chance to win. Turtle games on the other hand, do nothing but delay the inevitable and get boring.

    Just so you know, my 'A' BUTTON TRIGGERS THE Caps lock on my keyboaRD, SO MY POSTS are going to look funny until i caN PICK UP a new keyboARD...

    QUOTE (Talesin @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
    Congratulations, Mchief, on your first I&S idea not to be immediately locked. :)
  • tjosantjosan Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16374Posts: 1,335Members, Constellation
    It's the BGH syndrom all over again
  • Invader_ScootInvader_Scoot Join Date: 2003-10-13 Member: 21669Posts: 1,590Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 4 2009, 12:21 AM) »
    The average game should not be longer than 20 minutes.


    I'm not exactly for the eternity games either, but this... In most 20 minute games the victor is decided at the latest by 5 minutes.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,711Members
    QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Sep 4 2009, 06:53 AM) »
    I'm not exactly for the eternity games either, but this... In most 20 minute games the victor is decided at the latest by 5 minutes.

    Well, you found the problem. I'd like to have 20 minutes of meaningful and interesting gameplay. At best NS 3.2 is capabable of creating even 40+ minutes of absolutely marvellous play, but it doesn't show up often enough. Improving the gameplay structure so that uneven games finish quick, but even ones aren't decided too early should in my opinion be one of the major aims of NS2.
  • Ryo-OhkiRyo-Ohki Join Date: 2009-03-26 Member: 66917Posts: 132Members
    I certainly hope NS2 will be closer to 1.4 than 3.2. I returned to NS a couple of months ago then quickly discovered why I had neglected it for so long. I just wasn't having fun anymore. Now yes, nostalgia goggles can be terrible things, but old school NS had me hooked with good reason. A return to those golden days would be sweet.
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Posts: 581Members
    1.4 was garbage compared to what we have now
    CAL-ns|Austin
    CALeague - Natural Selection Division Admin

    image Co :: xHomicide
    Creator of ns_bhop (best ns map ever made), ns_duel, initial cal-ns plugin, nslearn.org website,
    and Capture Point (a 2 week source mod that a couple dozen people downloaded)

    http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/
  • SlaughtSlaught Join Date: 2005-02-12 Member: 40780Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 4 2009, 03:54 AM) »
    1.4 was garbage compared to what we have now

    Garbage is a bit harsh, don't you think?
    Rough around the edges maybe. :P
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Posts: 106Members
    I'm for a hard limit of 20 minutes.

    People need to eat, go to bath, have exercise etc. I also believe most loong matches occur because of bad game design (Tremulous) and excessive turtling.
  • locallyunscenelocallyunscene Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Posts: 4,021Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (borsuk @ Sep 4 2009, 02:13 PM) »
    I also believe most loong matches occur because of bad game design (Tremulous) and excessive turtling.

    Most stalemates are due to bad game design. Long matches are natural in a well balanced game of closely matched players.
    QUOTE (Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »
    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    - NS in game name - tilde - My Steam Id Page - .
  • SwampRatSwampRat Join Date: 2003-02-10 Member: 13369Posts: 147Members
    Given things like having an alien commander (I still haven't seen much information on that, but may have been looking in the wrong place), gorges not building as wide a range of things etc - I wonder how long it'll be before there's "NS Classic" or some other retrofit version trying to recreate the original(or originals depending which version they aim at). Hopefully someone will make it during the alpha or beta testing stage so there's not twenty different attempts at it made later by different people.
  • marksmarks Join Date: 2008-07-28 Member: 64720Posts: 331Members
    QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 4 2009, 08:13 PM) »
    Most stalemates are due to bad game design. Long matches are natural in a well balanced game of closely matched players.


    DINGDINGDING we have a winner!
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Posts: 581Members
    QUOTE (Slaught @ Sep 4 2009, 01:05 AM) »
    Garbage is a bit harsh, don't you think?
    Rough around the edges maybe. :P

    No, I was being polite.
    CAL-ns|Austin
    CALeague - Natural Selection Division Admin

    image Co :: xHomicide
    Creator of ns_bhop (best ns map ever made), ns_duel, initial cal-ns plugin, nslearn.org website,
    and Capture Point (a 2 week source mod that a couple dozen people downloaded)

    http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/
  • DadayaDadaya Join Date: 2005-02-02 Member: 39540Posts: 23Members, Constellation
    In most ns matches, my favorite part of the long games are the initial attack on the marines, or aliens, and the slow come-back that can always happen. 60 Minute+ games are only interesting if you're making progress. Even if it's slow, you know every RT counts!
    Rico Suave
    http://www.nfcrew.net

    Pre-ordered the special edition of NS2, please support the developers by doing so yourself.
    http://www.naturalselection2.com/buy
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Posts: 920Members
    edited September 2009
    One thing they could try is maybe adding a sort of respawn 'overdrive' mode based on the % of your team that's currently dead...in NS1 it's 10 sec per spawn for each IP or hive...they could lower that to 5 sec per spawn if 50% of the team is dead, and go back to normal when over half your team is alive again. (maybe 7 seconds for IPs since they can get more than 1)

    Would help your team bounce back during a last-ditch defense, and wouldn't help offense - they might get half their team back, but they would still have to move across the map again, and mounting an offense with half the team dead usually won't do much




    Or decreasing the respawn time if you're an alien dying on infestation or marine off infestation...the nanites/bacteria interfere with the data that needs to be sent back to the hive/IP to allow the player to return if you're not on your own element :P


    It won't solve the problem with turtling, but that can always be fixed in other ways
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Just so you know, my 'A' BUTTON TRIGGERS THE Caps lock on my keyboaRD, SO MY POSTS are going to look funny until i caN PICK UP a new keyboARD...

    QUOTE (Talesin @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
    Congratulations, Mchief, on your first I&S idea not to be immediately locked. :)
  • NeoSniperNeoSniper Join Date: 2005-06-02 Member: 52976Posts: 423Members
    QUOTE (monopolowa @ Sep 5 2009, 11:24 AM) »
    One thing they could try is maybe adding a sort of respawn 'overdrive' mode...


    BACON!

    I think the way NS1 did with beacon what quite good. The commander can use some res at crucial times to bring back the team.

  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Posts: 920Members
    QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Sep 6 2009, 11:54 AM) »
    BACON!

    I think the way NS1 did with beacon what quite good. The commander can use some res at crucial times to bring back the team.


    completely forgot about beacon (how embarrassing!) yes, it was quite useful at important times.

    But we don't know if it will be back in NS2, and it was only for marines anyway...
    Just so you know, my 'A' BUTTON TRIGGERS THE Caps lock on my keyboaRD, SO MY POSTS are going to look funny until i caN PICK UP a new keyboARD...

    QUOTE (Talesin @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
    Congratulations, Mchief, on your first I&S idea not to be immediately locked. :)
  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Posts: 1,260Members
    QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Sep 4 2009, 02:13 PM) »
    Most stalemates are due to bad game design. Long matches are natural in a well balanced game of closely matched players.


    Since they are so rare, that sort of indicates the game is unbalanced right now... and it is... you need 15 marines before things get interesting or else it's instant alien win every time... :P

    So for a long-match to occur, their would have to be something wrong with the alien team with respect to the research-efforts-res-collecting of the marine team... One possible cause is when a game starts between 2 players... and later on the server fills up with an unusual starting point :P

    The BEST!!! map for a long match is cerbsiege!!! reason being... marines can seal up those RTs with weldable walls... this and a relocate to the bunker (plus good marines) means that the marines can repeatedly be geared up and beaconed into marine start (where the door/teleporter is to the siege room)... so marines can have many shots at trying to secure the siege room... or the alternative is that marines fight through the halls all the way to the alien hive... either way that map is epic under the right conditions.

    Another good map is digsiege_fnl. As long as marines don't go the easy route of getting into siege room... the other choice is a heavy train through the rocks to alien-start... now that can be epic. Other situations that can occur is marines relocate to the 5-rt tunnel and have to fight their way out because aliens OC'd the entire map...

    zzzz no server runs these epic maps anymore... usually it's just the standard crap co_core ns_eclipse ns_hera ns_nothing ######.
    The enemy cannot eat an IP, if you disable its head!
  • homicidehomicide Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22451Posts: 581Members
    QUOTE (FocusedWolf @ Sep 6 2009, 07:07 PM) »
    Since they are so rare, that sort of indicates the game is unbalanced right now... and it is... you need 15 marines before things get interesting or else it's instant alien win every time... :P

    So for a long-match to occur, their would have to be something wrong with the alien team with respect to the research-efforts-res-collecting of the marine team... One possible cause is when a game starts between 2 players... and later on the server fills up with an unusual starting point :P

    The BEST!!! map for a long match is cerbsiege!!! reason being... marines can seal up those RTs with weldable walls... this and a relocate to the bunker (plus good marines) means that the marines can repeatedly be geared up and beaconed into marine start (where the door/teleporter is to the siege room)... so marines can have many shots at trying to secure the siege room... or the alternative is that marines fight through the halls all the way to the alien hive... either way that map is epic under the right conditions.

    Another good map is digsiege_fnl. As long as marines don't go the easy route of getting into siege room... the other choice is a heavy train through the rocks to alien-start... now that can be epic. Other situations that can occur is marines relocate to the 5-rt tunnel and have to fight their way out because aliens OC'd the entire map...

    zzzz no server runs these epic maps anymore... usually it's just the standard crap co_core ns_eclipse ns_hera ns_nothing ######.


    ...?
    CAL-ns|Austin
    CALeague - Natural Selection Division Admin

    image Co :: xHomicide
    Creator of ns_bhop (best ns map ever made), ns_duel, initial cal-ns plugin, nslearn.org website,
    and Capture Point (a 2 week source mod that a couple dozen people downloaded)

    http://austinlawrence.no-ip.org/ons/
  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Posts: 1,365Members, Constellation
    edited September 2009
    1.0x had long games because it was easy to turtle and alot of people still didn't know how to play the game.

    In reality with even teams, that knew what they were doing, the game length didn't change all that much. What changed was the the time it took from the start of the game til the aliens got a second hive, while the overall time really didn't change that much.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    froggeh
  • todd1Oktodd1Ok Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28018Posts: 342Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    edited September 2009
    thats the thing guys, NS is more than capable of 40+ minute games. I myself have played in at least 3 games this week alone that were 40 minutes + of truly epic gameplay. Im not sure how the american servers stack up but in europe we have a fairly high level of public gameplay in the early evening on places like VH2. None of this turtling bollocks either, good, hard, epic games where it swings both ways a number of times. NS's gameplay atm is, at the risk of a bad flaming, well balanced and with two large public teams can swing back and forth for hours.

    But you cant balance for skill. Any game thats decided by the 5th minute, at least in public play, usually has the dominant or stacked side. try evening the teams up a bit more skill wise and you might see better games. you're not always guaranteed to win this way but hey you'll at least get the games you so desperatly crave. even though 1.04 was a horrible turtle fest of tiny onos hitboxes and even worse fading mechanics.

    QUOTE (homicide @ Sep 6 2009, 11:29 PM) »
    ...?


    the correct response is "...!"
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    1.0x blink was epic. Appear out of nowhere, strike, disappear. The way it should be. It had its problems, but those were engine related, and forced them to change how blink works. The "new" blink from later versions is just silly. Fades flying through the air like superman is just dumb. A necessary evil at best. I hope NS2 has the original teleport version of blink.
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
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