NS2 Multiplayer

P_I_L_LP_I_L_L Join Date: 2005-07-19 Member: 56328Posts: 4Members, Constellation
edited March 2007 in NS2 General Discussion
Come on people (Long)
Hey,
Honestly, I've never posted in an NS forum that didn't involve international competition, but hopefully everyone who's competed at a high level in NS knows who I am. Not to try and pump myself up, but I'm honestly hoping that real players of a high skill level NS are still around and read this forum occasionally. I know it's been more than a while since our time in the sun passed, but I hope that input from the most skilled players of the Mod that's so damn popular to warrant a sequel on the level that I hope NS2 achieves will be listened to.

Anyway, Flayra, I really hope you're willing to listen to league players, because it really seems important at this stage in the development of NS2 that teamplay be the single most important aspect of the game. To be completely honest, people that feel like a single player experience is important completely missed the point of NS in it's original incarnation. The things that made NS great were the incredible depth of team cooperation with regards to both strategy and tactics, as either formulation of teamplay could have an enormous impact on games of NS1. I've honestly never experienced a game that could achieve such depth with regards to the way in which cooperation between teammates could impact the end result of the game. I've played most serious FPS's to the point where my own skill was trivial. I could win and not try. I honestly believe that I'm so unbelievably surpassed in this capability by good NS players that it's almost not worth mentioning. I honestly hope that the players who so far surpassed my own skill in this area will be listened to, as they approach the idea of a sequel to the game that we all loved with a passion that should not be underestimated.

With that said, I hope that my input will at least be taken seriously. The clan influence in NS1 was often despised, honestly, who didn't hate that one marine who would get 35 kills per spawn and cowboy a PG in several hives and completely turn the game around. The attitude of pubbers [public server players] towards the excellence displayed in any given game of NS towards a truly skilled league player is something that should be avoided at all costs in the sequel to NS. The learning curve should not be so steep as to only allow players who understand the engine that runs NS and how to manipulate it to their own advantage to compete without competition. However, the emphasis on individual skill should never be diminished. One of the most important aspects of the necessity for individual skill was the ability to alter the movement rate, based on an ability to control one's avatar within NS. Skill based movement that does not affect aim in the game is perhaps the hallmark of NS that I most cherish, as it separates NS from almost any other FPS in existence. I truly hope that others from the vaunted NS leagues will come together and agree that this is one of the more important aspects that makes NS a truly skill oriented game, even if it may seem to disenfranchise those who fail to learn the best ways to play the game.

Anyway, if there are any issues that other league players feel should be brought up, please don't neglect to mention them. Also, I don't under any circumstances mean to diminish the importance of Public server players, as they are without a doubt the backbone of the support for a game like NS, or hopefully NS2. Any serious concerns are welcome, but I hope you all take the future of this franchise as seriously as I do. Honestly NS has been the only game that has truly captivated me, and I hope it's value is not wasted on the other members of this forum. Also, please, no clanner vs. pubber conflicts in this thread. That issue has been done to death, and we all have an acute understanding of both sides. I hope we can all understand collective concerns regarding the future of Natural Selection and relate to each other despite the differences in origin that our points of interest probably share.

Thanks for taking me seriously,
and if you don't, thanks for reading my post anyway
[]D [] []_ []_. LOL =)



Wow, those paragraphs really didn't work out how I thought they would.

If someone can inform as to how to improve the readability of my post, it would be much appreciated.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,521Members
    edited March 2007
    *aussie accent* cricky mate you pretty much condradicted yourself and you used waaaaaaaaaay too many words - i'm guessing your a politican in the real world lol.

    So you would like NS gamesplay to be reflected players skills without ruining the game for everyone else?

    EDIT* typo
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • waterbusterwaterbuster Join Date: 2006-12-17 Member: 59117Posts: 61Members
    Leage players new suggestion:

    "Put skulks in wheelchairs".
  • J!J! NS2 Artist Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Posts: 422Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    edited March 2007
    PILL, I think you'll be happy to know that during the last NS2 Dev team meeting, which occurred about 10 hours ago, we discussed the importance of the balance between individual player skill and teamwork. I'm a competitive player at heart (I was in perhaps the most dominant Australian NS clan, at least of its era, played in the NSWC, etc.) so you can be assured that I will constantly be giving Flayra gameplay feedback from a competitive player's point of view.

    I agree with you on all points, particularly in regards to player movement being a skill, as well as addressing the learning curve issue. Fixing the learning curve is really just a matter of making the game more intuitive, as well as teaching players how to play by some means (that could mean a tutorial, training map, etc.). Player movement as a skill is not something that I can't really discuss in detail at the moment, but I can say that we have some very inspiring ideas and that we recognise its importance. While I doubt that we'll be seeing a return of bunnyhopping (simply because it is counter-intuitive) we have an idea for a replacement would be an undeniable improvement from everyone's perspective.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938Banned
    That's great and all, but bunnyhopping is actually really, really fun. I'd also be interested to hear whether there will be skill-based movement options for marines too, seeing as they're the ones that actually need and use them the most in NS1.
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  • N_3N_3 \o/ Join Date: 2004-03-12 Member: 27291Posts: 487Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(schkorpio @ Mar 27 2007, 10:32 PM) »

    *aussie accent* cricky mate you pretty much condradicted yourself and you used waaaaaaaaaay too many words - i'm guessing your a politican in the real world lol.

    You're an embarrassment to Australia.

    Anyway, i agree with this topic. I believe it was said before, but 'quick to learn and a lifetime to master' is definitely an appropriate phrase. Competitive games only work with the ability for individuals and teams to continuously improve in an attempt to overcome their opponents. NS was great like this because there were so many different skills that could (and needed to) be developed, some (well, lots of) examples: melee biting as a skulk, fade air control, hitting and running with the fade/onos, flying with the lerk, tracking with lmg/hmg, hit-scanning and snap shooting with the shotgun, using projectile trajectories with the gl, marine jumping, marine dodging, wall walking, bunnyhopping, med packing and being quick as comm. Not to mention all the strategic and tactical knowledge one learns and uses, ie knowing what is a winnable situation, the best places to ambush, where to stand in a room, where to drop buildings, which nodes to get, how to tackle hives, what upgrades to get etc. And on top of all that still is the team play dynamic where players can improve how they operate as team; group ambushes, marine squad movement/positioning, welding, covering, distracting/baiting...
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  • J!J! NS2 Artist Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Posts: 422Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    edited March 2007
    QUOTE
    That's great and all, but bunnyhopping is actually really, really fun. I'd also be interested to hear whether there will be skill-based movement options for marines too, seeing as they're the ones that actually need and use them the most in NS1.


    Hey, I never said bunnyhopping wasn't fun - in fact I'm sure I love bunnyhopping just as much as you do, but I recognise that it needs to be replaced with a better system. Something more intuitive, just as (if not more) fun, and much more effective!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938Banned
    QUOTE(JJJ1 @ Mar 28 2007, 04:31 AM) »

    Hey, I never said bunnyhopping wasn't fun - in fact I'm sure I love bunnyhopping just as much as you do, but I recognise that it needs to be replaced with a better system. Something more intuitive, just as (if not more) fun, and much more effective!



    Just give lerks rocket-boosters and it's all gravy dude =D
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  • scaryfacescaryface Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9918Posts: 192Members
    edited March 2007
    I will be sad to see bhopping go since its a great skill based system that takes time to learn and is flexible, but i understand that it has its flaws, one being that anyone using a script has an advantage (however slight) over any new player or anyone who doesn't like scripts. I'm interested in seeing this better system..

    I don't understand how it can be skill based (and take time to learn) and not increase the learning curve.
    In order to balance the gap between the very skilled and the noob, the skill involved would have to be decreased, and I don't think many people would like that. It would defeat the purpose of playing the game, and everyone would truly be like units in an RTS.

    I think the real problem with ns is that it doesn't have a sufficiently large community to have room for the pros to spend their time. The reason you don't see many people who can own an entire team while pubbing in cs (assuming no hacks, which is rare, and even if they don't hack they're assumed to hack) is because there is a place for them in the huge competetive community. With the number of clans ns currently has, no pro player could scrim all the time even if he/she wanted to. Some people who otherwise would play competitively are discouraged by the number of active clans and the perceived(?) eliteness of the few clans that exist.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • badmoonbadmoon Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7212Posts: 136Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2007
    There are a lot of little things that the most experienced players learned to give them an edge. I think the most notable is bunnyhopping (but there were others like higher frames per second made you build faster). League players already tended to be the best players in terms of knowing what to do or just being able to aim at something. This would just give them another edge.

    I defiantly like a game with a learning curve, but I think if you have to download or write a script to help your chances of moving faster there is a flaw. I wouldn't say remove bunnyhopping completely, but the guy who has a jump script shouldn't have an advantage.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    I can't type....

    the.plague
  • P_I_L_LP_I_L_L Join Date: 2005-07-19 Member: 56328Posts: 4Members, Constellation
    JJJ1, I can't even tell you how glad I am to hear that there is some input from competitive players in the development of NS2. I truly believe that if the friction that occurs between newer and casual players and competitive players can be successfully addressed that the sequel with be very successful. That conflict seemed to be the thing that prevented NS from becoming large enough to reach the level of CS or any of the other CPL games, despite imho being much better and more interesting tactically and strategically.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,815Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer admin
    It's funny that people always think that we a) don't listen to clan players or b) don't listen to pubbers when in fact we do a lot of both.

    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!
    Charlie Cleveland
    Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938Banned
    Yeah, in all fairness to UWE the "easy to learn, lifetime to master" analogy is a lot more applicable to game design than it ever has been to actually playing the resulting games.
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  • P_I_L_LP_I_L_L Join Date: 2005-07-19 Member: 56328Posts: 4Members, Constellation
    I think it's very easy to read through a changelog and find certain tweaks to the game that you don't like and target whichever demographic you don't belong to as the cause. I doubt it's an assumption that one side is not listened to, more an easily acquired illusion that perhaps the developers have more of an ear for one side over the other.

    Anyway, there's really nothing that more that needs to be said to put my greatest fear about the sequel to rest after JJJ1's comments. I'm glad you guys seem so open to player comments, it's really refreshing to see quick and insightful developer responses like this. I really hope the sequel enjoys the success that the original should have had.
  • HatlabuFarkasHatlabuFarkas Join Date: 2005-03-09 Member: 44496Posts: 338Members
    i wanna play NS:Source in LAN with my friends with ONE CD/DVD . biggrin-fix.gif
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  • SpaceJesusSpaceJesus Join Date: 2004-07-02 Member: 29683Posts: 938Banned
    That's what the Steam OFFLINE function is for ?!?!
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  • ZaggyZaggy NullPointerException The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-12-10 Member: 24214Posts: 3,633Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos, Subnautica Playtester mod
    edited April 2007
    QUOTE(Flayra @ Mar 28 2007, 09:21 PM) »

    It's funny that people always think that we a) don't listen to clan players or b) don't listen to pubbers when in fact we do a lot of both.

    It's not an easy balance to achieve, but we do want to make a game that will be both the best competitive game since Starcraft and also one that many people can enjoy casually without being in a clan or an experienced or knowledgeable NS player. That's the goal at least!


    To archieve such a feat would be awesome, but currently the learning curve for NS is kinda steep.
    We need (a) proper trainingmap(s),which imho should include bunnyhopping for the Kharaa.
    Also, please think about the old features that have been removed, afaik: babblers, lasers on marine heads/mines, Lerk spikes, Onos paralyse.



    <edit>I shouldn't try to type backwards.</edit>
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • cryptcrypt Join Date: 2004-04-22 Member: 28091Posts: 286Members, Constellation
    I for one would be very sad to see bhopping go. As other have pointed out before me, it is one of those thing in this game which you can constantly practice, because it might give you the edge in a fight. Maybe this type of moving is not very intuitive but once I started to figure it out I was actually quite motivating.

    I think what has to change about bhopping is the need of a script for the jumping part, I hate relying on perfect timeing+high constant fps. I'm sure that if that function would be build in in NS a lot of casual pubbers would quickly adapt (also training map needed as zaggy said).

    CS had bhopping build-in in his earlier visions too and was, afaik, only take out because they wanted a more realistic gameplay.

    <3 #lessthanthree
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