LR and ILZ entrances too linear? (spoilers?)
Rezca
United States Join Date: 2016-04-28 Member: 216078Members
United States Join Date: 2016-04-28 Member: 216078Members
People have been talking about how progression in the game feels too linear due to how fragments and such are/were located, but looking at the Lost River and Inactive Lava Zones, things feel pretty linear there too.
The original LR draft showed it snaking out across the map, having entrances in multiple areas like the Mushroom Forest(s) and the northeastern Mountains. Currently, this has been reduced to just the Deep Grand Reef and the Blood Kelp Islands. I think that the NE Mountains would have benefited from a LR entrance since there's not much reason to stray beyond the island, and the Mushroom Forests would have been cool too.
One thing that I felt when I first played Subnautica, was the intrigue of seeing a deep area I couldn't reach. The Blood Kelp Trench, the Grand Reef, the giant pit at the front of Aurora... These invoked a sense of mystery and awe in my mind, and I felt equal measures of fear of them and the desire to see what was down there. If you were speeding through the Mushroom Forests, a relatively easy place to access, and then saw this tunnel or great pit suddenly open up, wouldn't you want to know what was down there? Then you finally manage to take a look, and it just goes deeper and deeper, a change in atmosphere to something ominous and eerie, and it just keeps going down.
The ILZ entrances are starting to feel the same way, where you used to have multiple paths down there, I'm concerned they're going to be sealed up one by one. The Dunes entrance - which IMO was the one reason you'd want to visit that forsaken wasteland - was recently sealed up. The entrance beneath the Aurora is still barren and I'm worried it'll be removed soon. For a while, the Biome Map in the SA directory showed a small ILZ entrance in one of the Mushroom Forests. I never actually managed to find it even when it was still showing on that map, so I can't really confirm if it was an entrance that was also sealed up or if it was even there to begin with.
What do you think? Would these biomes be 'ruined' by having multiple entrances to them, or are they better off having but a few? I somehow felt that the Mushroom Forest would have actually suited the LR, because of the organic theme of both biomes, the NE Mountains would have given you a reason to visit it or serve as an exit point from exploring the LR, and the great pit opening up into the ILZ within the Dunes just seemed intimidating somehow yet gave me a reason to brave the place. The LR entrance in the Mushroom Forest being moved north a bit to the BK Islands is fine, but I still wonder how a Mushroom Forest entrance would have felt...
The original LR draft showed it snaking out across the map, having entrances in multiple areas like the Mushroom Forest(s) and the northeastern Mountains. Currently, this has been reduced to just the Deep Grand Reef and the Blood Kelp Islands. I think that the NE Mountains would have benefited from a LR entrance since there's not much reason to stray beyond the island, and the Mushroom Forests would have been cool too.
One thing that I felt when I first played Subnautica, was the intrigue of seeing a deep area I couldn't reach. The Blood Kelp Trench, the Grand Reef, the giant pit at the front of Aurora... These invoked a sense of mystery and awe in my mind, and I felt equal measures of fear of them and the desire to see what was down there. If you were speeding through the Mushroom Forests, a relatively easy place to access, and then saw this tunnel or great pit suddenly open up, wouldn't you want to know what was down there? Then you finally manage to take a look, and it just goes deeper and deeper, a change in atmosphere to something ominous and eerie, and it just keeps going down.
The ILZ entrances are starting to feel the same way, where you used to have multiple paths down there, I'm concerned they're going to be sealed up one by one. The Dunes entrance - which IMO was the one reason you'd want to visit that forsaken wasteland - was recently sealed up. The entrance beneath the Aurora is still barren and I'm worried it'll be removed soon. For a while, the Biome Map in the SA directory showed a small ILZ entrance in one of the Mushroom Forests. I never actually managed to find it even when it was still showing on that map, so I can't really confirm if it was an entrance that was also sealed up or if it was even there to begin with.
What do you think? Would these biomes be 'ruined' by having multiple entrances to them, or are they better off having but a few? I somehow felt that the Mushroom Forest would have actually suited the LR, because of the organic theme of both biomes, the NE Mountains would have given you a reason to visit it or serve as an exit point from exploring the LR, and the great pit opening up into the ILZ within the Dunes just seemed intimidating somehow yet gave me a reason to brave the place. The LR entrance in the Mushroom Forest being moved north a bit to the BK Islands is fine, but I still wonder how a Mushroom Forest entrance would have felt...
Comments
I know less about the inactive lava zone because I have spent very little time there.
I just went down there using pipes alone earlier xD
But yes, there's three LR entrances right now - one in the Blood Kelp Trench, one in the Deep Grand Reef, and one in the Blood Kelp Islands. I'm assuming the planned Mushroom Forest one got relocated to the northern BKZ at some point, but now there's really no need to have a Mushroom Forest entrance since they'd be too close together - and I'm guessing that's why, or part of why, the entrance got put further north instead. All three entrances would have been too close together.
The ILZ currently has the Deep Grand Reef and Lost River as entrances, with the Crash Zone being a potential third. It's there but it's undeveloped and might be cut later, making the only entrances to it being through cavernous ones. It might be possible that they don't want any surface entrances to it hence the Dunes entrance being sealed up, but there was that map showing the CZ entrance stating there'd be an entrance there. Then again, they also planned on there being a LR entrance in the NE Mountains, so anything's subject to change.
Update: Cory gives the reasoning as to why they're removing it on discord:
I also fear what this would do to the believability of the game world. When you have an entrance from the Dunes or Mountains, you "know" where the reaper remains in the LZ come from. Do I have to believe that all reapers go through the 2nd BKZ entrance now? Same for crabsquids - I don't really like the small population in the arm coming from the 1st BKZ, but I always figured they'd be technically part of the DGR crowd. If the DGR entrance is sealed up, there goes that explanation.
Not to mention the DGR entrance is my favorite for reasons of its closeness to an ILZ entrance. I'm not sure how to put this, but I like the uniqueness of having a depth biome transition occur through a non-depth one.
I reckon teleporters can do a bit to improve the situations and as I hope for one or two more depth biomes post-V1.0 I can't complain these changes leave room, but these aren't changes I am at present either positive or neutral towards.
Am I missing some kind of directions to find these places, or is random exploration supposed to result naturally finding them? Because as it is, I would barely know these locations exist and so the fewer entrances the less the chance I'd ever find them - would prefer more entrances in that case...
So far, with my exploration 'style' - that being very cautious - I tend to leave a beacon at the exploration area entrance and head back there with a full inventory. Leaving at a different location may happen, but it's unlikely to stop me going back for more... harvesting. But, if there's nothing interesting there to harvest, I may not come back for a long time.
>but we're going to make all of our caves linear with 1 entrance and 1 exit
Are you out of your goddamn minds?
We need MORE entrances!
MORE expansive cave systems!
Branching tunnels with splits, dead ends, intersections!
Just because "youtube Streamers" (Which have to have progress in their video series' to keep them interesting and the view counts up) take the short, easy road to progressing doesn't mean that has to be the ONLY road available.
Hell it's not like you're just leaving out content that has yet to be implemented, but you're actively REMOVING content just because a popular youtuber doesn't go exploring the whole damn ocean.
I rarely ever go to the Sea Treader Path. Is that going to be removed?
how about the vast chunks of Mountains and Dunes biomes that I have no reason to explore? Are you gonna remove those?
My first time going into the LR/LZ biomes was through the DGR with the PRAWN. I've also spent sessions looking for other entrances (being very disappointed that canyon in the Koosh Zone is not one; it would've given my bridge base the extra cachet). The only one I found was the hole beneath the Aurora and that one, as I learned the hard way, was unfinished.
For what it's worth, the DGR entrance will be removed, but not the tunnel, thus forming a dead end. I don't recall very strongly what was said on Discord, but I believe the intent is for there to be a skeleton and possibly something else too. I reckon a teleporter or cache.
If liner entrances are necessary so be it.
If this game had no story we wouldn't need this discussion.
Screw the giant skeleton then. I'm not stocking up on extra food, water, and power cells just to visit a dead end for sight seeing. DAMNIT! Stop taking stuff out and just finish the game already! There's too much new content still to do to waste time figuring out how to force players in through one way or another.
Anyway - One neat approach might be to have most of the openings be too small for the seamoth to fit through!
https://trello.com/c/DiDyNMcW/6113-lost-river-canyon-new-route-skeleton-area-lab-cache-polish
I'm confused, is that part the ghost canyon and the northern blood kelp zone on the top left?
Looks like the Ghost Canyon. I recognize it from my research travels, that's where I filmed parts of the crabsquid episode.
That's the DGR
Another problem with all those entrances is the special way the difficulty of navigating the Cyclops down into the Lava Zone was set up. Too much entrances might leave an uncontrolled and much too big and easy route down to the Lava Zone. There is a reason why the Cyclops has no vertical tilt in navigation! Only a few entrances ensure that each of them will be a challenge for the Cyclops to get through.
Official confirmation that the DGR's LR entrance is staying.
The DGR's ILZ entrance however will likely not be staying.
Unfortunately the Aurora's ILZ entrance will also be going.
Props where props're due. I will miss the DGR's ILZ entrance for reasons of that whole "uniqueness of having a depth biome transition occur through a non-depth one" thing, but I understand the motives. The Aurora one I'll not really miss, but I hope we'll get something in return some day (another wreck?).
Sarcasm aside, sad to hear parts of the map are going to be removed that have been there for a long time. Looks like they want to push players finding the LR before finding the ILZ. If that's the case maybe they should expand the LR to something more like that sketch they did early on with more entrances from the LR to ILZ.
Besides, that entrance in particular isn't something you'll just stumble on. You need to be actively exploring the Deep Grand Reef and I felt that an entrance was an excellent reward for it (Plus it makes sense to have it in a volcanic area like the Deep Grand Reef) Otherwise, there's no real reason to be down there apart from the Degasi Base since there's a more easily accessible Lost River entrance in the northern Blood Kelp Zone. There are great swathes of Mountain, Koosh and Dunes I've never explored because there's no incentive for it beyond scanning the native fauna and flora. Instead of removing these landmarks and cave systems, why not add more?
We need things to explore for the sake of exploration.
It's been a while since I first bought SA but I think the first entrance I found was the Aurora one. Or the Dunes entrance (RIP Dunes ILZ connection) Markiplier seemed to find the Dunes one first as well and then exited out of the DGR.
I liked the thought of the Aurora's crash revealing an entrance to a deep sea cave, I'd love to see it stay but I won't lose sleep over it being removed either. Maybe they could use it for something else, and yeah I agree that there should be more reason to visit these places. Story's good and all, but exploration for the beauty and wonder of it is just as good a reason to add things. Resources is another thing. The Northeastern Mountains are fairly interesting to explore - reapers aside - but there's.... Nothing really there. There's a LOT of uraninite crystals, but the only other resources of note are Magnetite - which have limited use - and Basalt Chunks for Diamond and Gold. Right now, those have very very limited use.
On the other hand, the 'common' resources like Quartz and Titanium are always in high demand for me. Surprisingly the Dunes has a good amount of titanium and even some silver, and the Blood Kelp has a good amount of quartz - perhaps too much quartz - but the Mountains... I'd say seed some Lime/Sand stone deposits around here and there as well, or put in some more pretty things to look at.
I was looking forward to a NE Mountains entrance to the Lost River, and liked the idea of a Mushroom Forest entrance into it... The organic theme of both made it seem like a natural connection, plus I always adored the idea of exploring in a relatively 'shallow' place and then seeing this hole or trench just descend into the abyssal depths leaving you with a sense of wonder as to what could be down there... But, with the Blood Kelp entrances being nearby there's no real reason for a MF entrance now, and a Mountains entrance would require carving a lot of new tunnels into the map, which isn't something I'd want to see them attempt until post-1.0 when they've got things settled enough that they can look towards expanding things.
That would be unfortunate if true. They advertised the game as one to explore, they updated the wrecks and fragments to encourange flexible paths through the upgrade tree... Why, would at this point, they decide to make it fully linear? After you get the cyclops and exosuit, there's no more alternate paths, no more decision making, no more being rewarded for exploring. Just follow the path the game sets for you, through the LR and into the one single entrance to the ILZ.
It'd especially be unfrotunate since they put a lot of detail into the DGR entrance; if they do seal it up, they should put something else there instead of caving the whole thing in. They really should have kept the Dunes entrance, and the Aurora one? Just stick a Sea Dragon or two inside that corridor. Unless people had a prawn and the depth upgrades they wouldn't be able to follow it to the end anyway. I get that the LR is supposed to be important to the story, and that skipping by it would have a negative impact on that, but that should definitley not mean that it should be the only entrance into the ILZ.
But as you can see on my previous post, they are thinking about adding another entrance somewhere else in the world.
I've been playing on Stable only lately, so I never knew... That's a shame, especially when you consider the Twisty Bridges were potentially going to be relocated down there to transition from the DGR to the ILZ Corridor. Now what will happen to them?
I still strongly feel that a single entry point into the ILZ is a bad idea, since it goes against the whole exploration and freedom aspects the game has most everywhere else. Editing because I hit submit too soon; but there were these entrances:
Northern Dunes
Northern Crash Zone
Lost River
Deep Grand Reef.
Of these, the Dunes and DGR have been sealed up. The Aurora entrance is likely to be sealed up too. If they open up another entrance, where would it go? I'd suggest either keeping the Crash Zone entrance, re-opening the Dunes one, or carving one into the Northeastern Mountains. A Koosh Zone entrance could be looked into, since it seems to have a good amount of volcanic activity there already.
The latter two suggestions would require more work though, than keeping the Dunes/Crash Zone entrances which are already carved out. Besides which you have to go out of your way to find the Dunes one, and the Aurora most people don't seem to look down there anyway because of the terrifyingness of that abyss and the Reaper parked right above it.
Actually thinking about it... The Mountains might be a good place for it after all. How many people really go into the deepest reaches of that place, especially after they visit the Island? The Dunes and Mountains have been - from what I've seen - some of the least visited places in the game, while the Grand Reef and its depths tend to be a hotspot. Not only is the Floating Island there, but all the story-related stuff and easy access into the Lost River with the least amount of danger on your part compared to other entrances to it.
One of the reasons I liked the Crash Zone entrance... And the Dunes entrance... Was the forboding feeling of just seeing that bottomless abyss before you, and it just kept going deeper and deeper. Sure, it was surface-level access into the ILZ, but they weren't without risk either. You had to dodge reapers, and if they had kept those entrances, you could have had Sea Dragons in the corridors too. They eat reapers, and there's reapers right by those entrances. It'd have made sense. That would make the Lost River entrance technically more safe. It'd deter most players from wanting to shortcut to the ILZ by going through there, but the option would remain. And I'm all for seeing more of those cuties too~