Update 305 Live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

SystemSystem Join Date: 2013-01-29 Member: 182599Members, Super Administrators, Reinforced - Diamond
edited July 2016 in NS2 General Discussion

imageUpdate 305 Live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

It’s been two weeks since our last update, be honest you missed us! Moving to this model has allowed for us to make some much needed changes to our way...

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2016
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven"

    So does that mean one team can have more than 1 player more on the field than the other team?


    I think its good to focus on team-balance. But dealing with team-balance requires focusing on smurfs. i think most games are unbalanced because of incorrect hive ratings. people with real hive ratings from 2000 to 3000 are cheating their hive down to 1000 or below.
    this destroys the balance in most games.
    in my personal experience 7 out of 10 games are unbalanced because of smurfing. jesus maybe someone can explain to me what is fun to create a new account and smash newer players? i don't get it.

    The new hive 2.0 should have a feature that ranks smurfs by their real strength. i know this is difficult to make. but imo the only way to make more balanced rounds is to deal with the massive amount of smurfs
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited July 2016
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven."

    If I'm understanding this right then autobalance does nothing now?


    Other than that it looks good, can't wait to see if hive 2.0 is any better than what we've had.

  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    edited July 2016
    The sandbox mode is still crashing on start with a black screen.

    Though gotta give credit where it is due, the bots filling teams is nice, however it baffles me that you add a feature like this wihtout having their AI optimized first.
    As is each bot takes around 10fps or more, this will be very problematic having them pop in and out of games randomly and it shouldnt be so CPU hungry!
  • ZycaRZycaR Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8263Members
    edited July 2016
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven."
    If I'm understanding this right then autobalance does nothing now?
    +1 this require answer ASAP!

    Autobalance had one job to do .. stop players from spawning when teams are uneven.

    * Did the server issues have been fixed? please ?
  • SherlockSherlock Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168595Members
    Do they mean "when teams are uneven, skill-wise"...?

    So, your team is two players down, and the opponent's autobalance should now kick in stopping them from spawning... but if their average hive skill level is lower than yours, they can spawn anyway?

    That's what I get from the statement.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Neat. This biweekly update cycle suits you much better. I'm very glad to see that HIVE 2.0 is finally being tackled. Keep up the good work.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    The sandbox mode is still crashing on start with a black screen.

    Though gotta give credit where it is due, the bots filling teams is nice, however it baffles me that you add a feature like this wihtout having their AI optimized first.
    As is each bot takes around 10fps or more, this will be very problematic having them pop in and out of games randomly and it shouldnt be so CPU hungry!

    FPS is not a linear measure. A change of 10 frames per second would mean a very different thing if you started at 60 vs 120. Also, the bot cost I believe should be on the server, not the client.

    We are working on further performance improvements, we'll give more details as those plans solidify.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    ZycaR wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven."
    If I'm understanding this right then autobalance does nothing now?
    +1 this require answer ASAP!

    Autobalance had one job to do .. stop players from spawning when teams are uneven.

    Good in theory but what it mostly did was extend games needlessly by preventing the winning team from finishing the game once the losing team started to quit.

    Autobalance used to do three things:
    1. Prevent players from joining a team which already has more players than the other team (you can now do this, but only up to the bot fill mark)
    2. Prevent players from spawning, if your team is up by more than one player, until one of your teammates dies (frustrating mechanic, didn't work well on aliens especially where late game you could be waiting a very long time for someone to lose their fade/lerk/onos)
    3. End the game if the teams are too unbalanced (I think it's if one team has less than half the number of players of the other team... this is also prevented somewhat by the filler bots, I believe, meaning people should use the concede votes, and not F4)

    Only #2 has been removed. The other two are effected by the bot fill mechanic, but are still in the game and are operational.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    remi wrote: »
    ZycaR wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven."
    If I'm understanding this right then autobalance does nothing now?
    +1 this require answer ASAP!

    Autobalance had one job to do .. stop players from spawning when teams are uneven.

    Good in theory but what it mostly did was extend games needlessly by preventing the winning team from finishing the game once the losing team started to quit.

    Autobalance used to do three things:
    1. Prevent players from joining a team which already has more players than the other team (you can now do this, but only up to the bot fill mark)
    2. Prevent players from spawning, if your team is up by more than one player, until one of your teammates dies (frustrating mechanic, didn't work well on aliens especially where late game you could be waiting a very long time for someone to lose their fade/lerk/onos)
    3. End the game if the teams are too unbalanced (I think it's if one team has less than half the number of players of the other team... this is also prevented somewhat by the filler bots, I believe, meaning people should use the concede votes, and not F4)

    Only #2 has been removed. The other two are effected by the bot fill mechanic, but are still in the game and are operational.

    I think most people - like me - weren't aware that 1 and 3 count as part as autobalance instead of being separate features. This may be due to the fact that the game only ever tells you about autobalance if case 2 applies.
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    remi wrote: »
    ZycaR wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    "Autobalance doesn’t stop players from spawning anymore when teams are uneven."
    If I'm understanding this right then autobalance does nothing now?
    +1 this require answer ASAP!

    Autobalance had one job to do .. stop players from spawning when teams are uneven.

    Good in theory but what it mostly did was extend games needlessly by preventing the winning team from finishing the game once the losing team started to quit.

    Autobalance used to do three things:
    1. Prevent players from joining a team which already has more players than the other team (you can now do this, but only up to the bot fill mark)
    2. Prevent players from spawning, if your team is up by more than one player, until one of your teammates dies (frustrating mechanic, didn't work well on aliens especially where late game you could be waiting a very long time for someone to lose their fade/lerk/onos)
    3. End the game if the teams are too unbalanced (I think it's if one team has less than half the number of players of the other team... this is also prevented somewhat by the filler bots, I believe, meaning people should use the concede votes, and not F4)

    Only #2 has been removed. The other two are effected by the bot fill mechanic, but are still in the game and are operational.

    I think most people - like me - weren't aware that 1 and 3 count as part as autobalance instead of being separate features. This may be due to the fact that the game only ever tells you about autobalance if case 2 applies.

    Plus it's so rare to play a game without shuffle that you aren't likely to see a stacked team anyways.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    remi wrote: »
    The sandbox mode is still crashing on start with a black screen.

    Though gotta give credit where it is due, the bots filling teams is nice, however it baffles me that you add a feature like this wihtout having their AI optimized first.
    As is each bot takes around 10fps or more, this will be very problematic having them pop in and out of games randomly and it shouldnt be so CPU hungry!

    FPS is not a linear measure. A change of 10 frames per second would mean a very different thing if you started at 60 vs 120. Also, the bot cost I believe should be on the server, not the client.

    We are working on further performance improvements, we'll give more details as those plans solidify.

    Yea makes sense if it's calculated by the server
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    So when will we see a real white list policy, buffs to gorge's move ability, buffs on the marine side late game, ya know the things we've been talking about for nearly 10 patches now?
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    The lack of a newline after the image in @System's posts makes me sooooo infuriated...
    cereal-guy-meme-face.jpg





    ...so infuriated!
  • G_LockG_Lock Playtester_ FL Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184624Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I hope when hive 2.0 comes out, you change it so people cant leave a server if their in a terribly loosing game just join another server before the match they left is over and get no negative hive penalty because of that. Leaving a said game should result in negative gains and there should be NO WAYS around this. Its retarded and you should feel retarded for doing it.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
    Well, just playing on thirsty onos when the server is filling up...and its kinda annoying... feels like people are actually leaving due to them... they just spam so many messages when they join or leave...
    And when there are Bots filling up witnh 2vs3 its kinda lame... you cant concede... since bots dont vote.. Who's idea was that
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Well, just playing on thirsty onos when the server is filling up...and its kinda annoying... feels like people are actually leaving due to them... they just spam so many messages when they join or leave...
    And when there are Bots filling up witnh 2vs3 its kinda lame... you cant concede... since bots dont vote.. Who's idea was that

    I would never start a round or play in a round with bots in it.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Handschuh wrote: »
    Well, just playing on thirsty onos when the server is filling up...and its kinda annoying... feels like people are actually leaving due to them... they just spam so many messages when they join or leave...
    And when there are Bots filling up witnh 2vs3 its kinda lame... you cant concede... since bots dont vote.. Who's idea was that

    Bots don't count towards votes.
    This means if its just you and 5 other bots on a team and you vote to concede, it will occur 100% of the time.
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer
    Well if even one doesnt vote concede in 3on3 your fucked and leave the server... yay
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited July 2016
    I completely concur.
    I dislike that you will be unable to F4 to autoconcede a round if there are rookies or just a few people who refuse to concede with less than 6 on a team. It may make people just leave the server, essentially killing a server's population.
    (Note: if the team still has 6 people on it, you will still be able to force a concede by F4ing, but if it drops below 6 bots will fill in, disabling the auto concede)

    Alternate solutions have been discussed, like making concede votes much more apparent like those of mid round map votes so that oblivious rookies aren't a factor anymore and instead it'd be intentional democracy.. but I still don't like the concept of only a few people willingly dragging out an ending for other players who rather start a new round. Common sense says that if a healthy chunk of your team is done playing that round, then the quality of that round has decreased significantly and you should just start another.. yet there are those who do not want to, and do not care / rather fool around.

    Who knows.. maybe it won't be a problem since the opposing team should have less issue finishing the round against less players, bots and the few inexperienced players remaining, or because it will be rare that a team drops below 6 players.
    *shrug*.. we'll see.
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    migalski wrote: »
    So when will we see a real white list policy, buffs to gorge's move ability, buffs on the marine side late game, ya know the things we've been talking about for nearly 10 patches now?

    According to their trello they've had a public whitelist policy since June 3rd. I too am waiting to see it.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    Mattk50 wrote: »
    Another patch without healthbar changes. At this point im betting they dont want to undo it just because someone already put in effort editing the UI.

    Also, nice "trust me we're listening to commuinity feedback" paragraph. Normally you dont need try to convince people if your actually doing it.

    Health bars were always in the game from the start, I've been convinced of that now.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    Increased the rate with which each Minigun heats up from 0.2 to 0.3 to compensate for them being independent now

    Maybe I should play before I comment, but 50% increase feels like overcompensation. Independent overheating is a small buff. Overheating 1.5x faster is a large nerf. Were exos OP before? (i.e. before the independent heating). Because that's the only reason you should take more away from them than you give them.
  • Deck_Deck_ Join Date: 2014-07-20 Member: 197526Members
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    Increased the rate with which each Minigun heats up from 0.2 to 0.3 to compensate for them being independent now

    Maybe I should play before I comment, but 50% increase feels like overcompensation. Independent overheating is a small buff. Overheating 1.5x faster is a large nerf. Were exos OP before? (i.e. before the independent heating). Because that's the only reason you should take more away from them than you give them.

    Before the patch today, I had a couple comebacks on marines that I felt like we would have never had before the exo's were buffed. You could move through the map with exo's and people were staying alive for a very long time. So perhaps a small nerf was necessary, as I don't think the gameplay is great when exo's are too hard to stop.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited July 2016
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    Increased the rate with which each Minigun heats up from 0.2 to 0.3 to compensate for them being independent now

    Maybe I should play before I comment, but 50% increase feels like overcompensation. Independent overheating is a small buff. Overheating 1.5x faster is a large nerf. Were exos OP before? (i.e. before the independent heating). Because that's the only reason you should take more away from them than you give them.

    The previous change was considered too powerful in retrospect, and we didn't really get to do that many internal games with it before it went out either. The place it's at right now is roughly between how it used to be before the first change - where firing both weapons would make you overheat extremely quickly - and the previous change where they had very long times before overheat. Personally I feel like it's in a much better place with the 305 update than either previous iteration, and that's coming from someone with a very strong pro-exo/minigun bias.

    Play around with it and see how it feels. I agree that on paper the change feels reactionary (I didn't like it when I first read it either), but once you actually try it you'll see that it's much more reasonable than you might expect.
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    When the first person joins an empty server with filler_bots set to higher than the PGP cutoff (and PGP is activated on the server), PGP will begin to count down as if it is turning off. When the countdown reaches zero, PGP will behave as usual and remain on. I assume it happens with warmup mode as well. Any chance of a fix @GhoulofGSG9 ? Not a big deal though, obviously.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    Narfwak wrote: »
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    Increased the rate with which each Minigun heats up from 0.2 to 0.3 to compensate for them being independent now

    Maybe I should play before I comment, but 50% increase feels like overcompensation. Independent overheating is a small buff. Overheating 1.5x faster is a large nerf. Were exos OP before? (i.e. before the independent heating). Because that's the only reason you should take more away from them than you give them.

    The previous change was considered too powerful in retrospect, and we didn't really get to do that many internal games with it before it went out either. The place it's at right now is roughly between how it used to be before the first change - where firing both weapons would make you overheat extremely quickly - and the previous change where they had very long times before overheat. Personally I feel like it's in a much better place with the 305 update than either previous iteration, and that's coming from someone with a very strong pro-exo/minigun bias.

    Play around with it and see how it feels. I agree that on paper the change feels reactionary (I didn't like it when I first read it either), but once you actually try it you'll see that it's much more reasonable than you might expect.

    Cool. Was just a knee-jerk reaction to reading it.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    Increased the rate with which each Minigun heats up from 0.2 to 0.3 to compensate for them being independent now

    Maybe I should play before I comment, but 50% increase feels like overcompensation. Independent overheating is a small buff. Overheating 1.5x faster is a large nerf. Were exos OP before? (i.e. before the independent heating).

    Because that's the only reason you should take more away from them than you give them.

    Independent overheating was a huge buff, when firing both guns the heat up rate per gun was 0.35. Removing that extra mechanic made both guns heat up at a rate of 0.2. This made exos able to shoot nearly twice as long. Bringing it back up to 0.3 is still a buff compared to where it was before, when shooting both guns. We didn't take away more than we gave.
Sign In or Register to comment.