Some thoughts for the new team from an old school player.
Pararoid
Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 164819Members
Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 164819Members
Huge insane NS1 fan here, I played on the NZ national team, which as you'll know if you were around, AUS/NZ had the highest caliber of competitive NS by a decent margin.
The issues with NS2, as I see them were;
- Performance. We all know it, but still worth mentioning, most of us have upgraded now, but my initial play experiences were terrible because of this.
- Symmetry. NS1 was extremely asymmetrical and it was amazing. Additions like the Alien commander and Marines having personal res diluted the game too much to be worth it. The addition of creep/power cores sounds good on paper, but ultimately just translated to busy work in the game, the systems could be salvaged with a rework though.
- Limitations. The reduction of defensive structures to an annoyance still feels like it goes against the heart of NS. Alien Wall of Deaths may have been too extreme, but surely there's room to have some viable base defenses. Really this change, limiting turrets and OCs so extremely, changed the shape and feel of the game so much I barely recognize the way matches actually play out now. So many people in this thread have noted the super high skill cap, which was always true in NS, but viable defense structures defuse this to a huge degree, since it places importance back on the RTS/Strategy element of the game.
Anyway, I fresh look needs to be taken; what features do we need to tone down so the game can run on peoples systems, while still having big bases and viable defenses. If that means cutting something like the dynamic infestation, then honestly at this stage, so be it. NS2 tried to move from being an RTS with FPS units, as in NS1, to a FPS with some RTS elements, and in the process alienated a huge chunk of its fan base.
The issues with NS2, as I see them were;
- Performance. We all know it, but still worth mentioning, most of us have upgraded now, but my initial play experiences were terrible because of this.
- Symmetry. NS1 was extremely asymmetrical and it was amazing. Additions like the Alien commander and Marines having personal res diluted the game too much to be worth it. The addition of creep/power cores sounds good on paper, but ultimately just translated to busy work in the game, the systems could be salvaged with a rework though.
- Limitations. The reduction of defensive structures to an annoyance still feels like it goes against the heart of NS. Alien Wall of Deaths may have been too extreme, but surely there's room to have some viable base defenses. Really this change, limiting turrets and OCs so extremely, changed the shape and feel of the game so much I barely recognize the way matches actually play out now. So many people in this thread have noted the super high skill cap, which was always true in NS, but viable defense structures defuse this to a huge degree, since it places importance back on the RTS/Strategy element of the game.
Anyway, I fresh look needs to be taken; what features do we need to tone down so the game can run on peoples systems, while still having big bases and viable defenses. If that means cutting something like the dynamic infestation, then honestly at this stage, so be it. NS2 tried to move from being an RTS with FPS units, as in NS1, to a FPS with some RTS elements, and in the process alienated a huge chunk of its fan base.
Comments
Reclaim what made NS1 unique. Dropping the odd turret is very common in FPS games these days, and by homogenizing and in restricting defensive structures NS strayed from its RTS origins.
Reclaim the asymmetry of NS1, reclaim the RTS roots of the game; take the classic gameplay and just add some new toys and some new graphics, that's honestly all the game ever needed. NS2 was an interesting and extremely ambitious project, but ultimately it was too ambitious and it sacrificed fun so the vision of things like dynamic infestation could be realized. My advice would be to work on regaining the classic NS pace and gameplay, while working in new weapons, upgrades and tools.
- Made for 6v6, 8v8
- RTS elements stripped to the bare minimum, eg. medpacks and w upgrades is the most important job of Marine commander. Alien commander is not too interesting aswell.
- Restricted use for whips, hydras, turrets, webs. Especially mid-lategame.
- Weak exo compared to jp.
- Fast paced rambo is key to victory
- Most games are decided in 10-15 min
- 1,2 skilled in team can pretty much win the game on their own
- Skill barrier and pubstomp a real issue for player retention, a lot of yelling and kick player at rookies
- Only veterans remain in the game.
I didn't play NS1, but from how you describe it, I'm glad they toned Down the RTS elements you mention, and this is coming from somebody with a competitive RTS background. Nothing more tedious and boring than fighting odd sentries.
I also think it's a huge misnormer to call them strategy games. As if FPS don't require strategy. In fact, some of the smartest people, strategy-wise, I have ever met, are FPS players - in spite of my RTS and chess background. You CAN win engagements against more skilled opponents in FPS and NS2, with superior strategy.
RTS are mostly about memorizing and executing build orders and timings. You could train a monkey to do that.
NS2 is also more about memorizing and executing build orders than NS1. NS1 was way more about timings, every event in NS1 dynamically changed the game from one mode to another. Now, everything is always the same and rarely situational.
In regards to the restriction of defense chambers, I think this is a good change. Ns2 is a fast-paced SHOOTER for most of the players in the game. I do not want to be constantly fighting hydras and whips and crags as a marine, nor do I want to be chiefly worried about sentries and arcs as an alien. This is a boring game mechanic imo and takes the job our of my hands as a field player. What then is my focus if one can rely on structures? Just build? In an fps? No.
I've got to say, and I mean this with respect as I loved ns and it's enveloping atmosphere and pace as well, that it sounds more like a case of nostalgia and personal wants not being gratified. Ns2 is not ns. The 2 games have the same objective: cleanse the intruders, but they gameplay has evolved into, what is in my opinion, a much more appropriate style for our age of fps.
Coming into ns2 hoping for ns1 with updated graphics is going to surely lead to disappointment, and if that was the developer's original route, I would not have had interest personally. The strategy is there. The rts elements are there. They're just not the same ones as ns1. Adapt, enjoy!
Edit: you also mention that you feel that ns1 was an rts with fps units, and that ns2 she'd away from this, reversing the 2. I must disagree. Ns1 built on the same engine as 2 of the most popular fps games if their day (hl, cs). Purely an fps engine with rts elements added in. Ns2 on the other hand was built specifically to incorporate more rts elements for both sides, relying on an in-house engine to do so. Regardless of spark's ability to initially be able to do this, it shows the dev's clear intent to maintain and add to the rts factor.
However hard they tried, spark could never have the fluidity of goldsrc. The moment an engine adds dynamic lighting, it can never be as smooth an experience as a baked light engine, it is just a consequence of the complexity of dynamic lights.
Maybe in 20 years time, when computer power has exponentially grown, playing spark might be as smooth as goldsrc was back then, but I doubt it.
@soul_rider, what is better graphics to them? Do they just want NS with 4k textures? Maybe include some remade models. I consider dynamic lighting apart of the better graphics portion. As you described it just now, NS with better graphics seems like a contradiction.
The reason for that was largely the 'feel' when playing. The smoothness and fluidity of movement etc.
This indescribable enitty of personal feeling that I am trying to talk about (maybe someone with a way of putting this into words may be able to help), when playing is not possible in an engine with dynamic lights.
Oh sod it.
I will find a link and edit this post to explain what I am failing to explain
It didn't take off because a single developer if not 2 handling a mod system that took 10years to import any sort of content to the engine seemed tedious? that and you can't fully port the goldsrc movement to NS2 only parts of it without help from the devs.
NS2c wasn't popular because people weren't willing to try new things, you can't play competitive NS2 on ns2c because it's not "NS2" but they might however play ns2c comps in ns2c was up to the standards, and that's not dragons or anyone elses fault or then the failed idea that NS2 was going to be NS1 on an upgraded engine...
Movement even with "advanced movement" selected felt nothing like NS1 movement, However at one stage there was a mod http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/115173/movement-mod/p1 which mimiced the movement pretty well but again it wasn't exactly the same, i want to know where that mod went (cry)
marine double jump missing
kharra/alien bunnyhop missing, or the implementation of jumping for skulk air-control wasn't exactly how it was in NS1.
gorge building not fully implemented with correct structures like dcs, mcs, scs, res towers etc
NS1 meta game allowed for more screwing around in the meantime, setting up defenses as a gorge or even ambushing to most extents which you hardly ever see in NS2.
^it just wasn't ready to be played on even if it was fun.
I can understand the feeling of a game engine. I can not stand source games, at least the modern ones, because they just feel odd. I may be alone in that opinion because source engine is very popular with a competitive crowd but I still don't like it. I have not clue why either. UE3 and spark both feel good to me though.
There is a reason the CS 1.6 competitive community survived until CS:GO sorted itself out...
That's mostly what everyone wanted at the time + new goodies and additions.
The game was really solid all it needed was a graphical upgrade so it didn't look so old, you know how many comments i got at internet cafes around 2011/2012 when i did go "what is that game, it looks like shit" casuals really do have a problem with graphics and textures to the point where they'd just throw away and judge an entire game based on the visual content and not the actual game itself.
The movement of goldsrc was litterly gold, smooth yet solid, to me thinking of goldsrc movement is like thinking of a titanium coated rock being dropped off a roof, it falls at a constant and has a pure charming shine to it
the movement of spark engine is that like battlefield 2 maybe even battfield series, jumping feels like you're jumping through sand at times it's like your legs are locked when you want to do something and are being pulled back.
NS2 aircontrol / strafing is a combination of mouse + keyboard, you can litterly hold w and move the mouse to perform most if not all needed movements to walljump in ns2
NS1 aircontrol consisted of strafing without w for the most part and curving the mouse to perform a more directed and accurate attack, your mouse litterly transitioned directly to where you were looking that and bunnyhopping in figure 8's or in my case flicked figure 8's, people passed down bunnyhop styles to there apprentices, it really was a gold movement system!
My brain is getting twisted talking about the 'feeling of movement', in a game, where quite clearly, I am sitting in a seat.
I think nizb0ag and some others raised a really important issue surrounding emergent gameplay and situations. One huge issue right off the bat with the symmetry issue I was talking about is the tech point system that prevents marines from relocating. Marine relo was a great example of how NS1 games varied and presented dynamic situations that couldn't be solved by a certain build order. The inability of Gorges to build up an area relates to this issue as well.
Just to be blunt, I don't think NS2 lived up to its potential as the sequel to what was an amazingly original game. When I read a new team was stepping in with a different directions I was excited because, as I suggested earlier this is a great opportunity to reclaim the games roots.
NS2 is a decent shooter with some limited structure building and area control mechanics. The issue with that is that so is Team Fortress 2, but TF2 is an amazing shooter and also its free. If NS2 wants to have any hope of really gaining a market share, it needs to be different.
_INTER_ posted a great list of some of the questionable decisions that have led NS2 to its current state and I think the one that really stood out to me was the aim to have games finish much faster; NS2 games shouldn't be quick deathmatches, they should be long strategic conflicts that incorporate a variety of strategies and mechanics.
I agree, of course, that the movement and gameplay have suffered greatly from the move to the new engine, but I do think that by removing some of a literal 'nice to have' aspects that performance could be greatly improved.
Ultimately I guess I don't really see NS2 has a great deal to lose by making some of these sweeping and possibly risky changes; currently, as almost always, there are no games with a lower than 200 ping within my range. Effectively this means NS2 is dead from my perspective, and I can't imagine all the effort that's gone into making it more like other FPS games has helped that at all.
Lol, NS2's engine makes that mode useless
Nah, the maps are different and NS2 doesn't really have friendly double res nodes that were most popular then and NS1 didn't have power nodes. My memories of NS1 are hazy but I think it was also frowned upon in general. Well, at least we wouldn't be facing marines turtling in vents which have huge rooms in the middle for no reason even if we changed the command station back to a chair.
If you would like to change your name on this account, ask a mod. They can do that.
Shrug. The tanith double node was the most popular relocate in my experience. I don't think I've seen marines relocate much in other maps.
Edit - Now that I think about it, I think tanith and eclipse were half my games in NS1.
Fun factor increased by 10x
Lerk lift wouldnt even be that hard. @lifesfun modded it in awhile ago. I know seige has it too. The code exists.
Bile bomb lerk gorge lerk combo is op though.
Just disable the use of bilebomb whilst gorge is attached to lerk. When I administrated WONGA back in the last heydays on NS1 we had an amx mod that disabled it whilst gorge was attached which removed the OP problem, I can't remember if we also enabled or disabled healspray whilst attached, the intention was to allow the gorge to reach places it would not normally be able to.