Base building thoughts?
Flayra
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
Hey everyone,
We just had a discussion regarding how we want to do underwater base building in Subnautica. I thought maybe you guys had some thoughts on this?
Feel free to add your comments in the doc, and/or in this thread. We'd like to start prototyping this for mid-February!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncKUU2xDQWHWgJUPOCfZUclJm9oqKPQBw1yrECnaUog/edit?usp=sharing
We just had a discussion regarding how we want to do underwater base building in Subnautica. I thought maybe you guys had some thoughts on this?
Feel free to add your comments in the doc, and/or in this thread. We'd like to start prototyping this for mid-February!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ncKUU2xDQWHWgJUPOCfZUclJm9oqKPQBw1yrECnaUog/edit?usp=sharing
Comments
I like the ideas of modular base building, though an observation module with the age-old bubble ceiling/barrier would be nice.
• These buildable bases are small outposts that you can design differently depending on your needs for that area. One area you design a more comfy design with a giant observation window in the sleep area (sleeping restores your health). You can swim around the area around this outpost to prepare food and water for a journey into an unexplored area. You would be able to have modules to make captured food and water provide more sustenance. They’re fish tanks you can put your favorite fish into. You could set up current generators or a beacon to attract a certain type of fish for make harvesting easier. This type of outpost can only be placed in shallower depths maybe?
• Another outpost could be designed for resource generation. Have it harvest on top of a big geothermal vent to gradually produce batteries. Or it could anchor itself to the sand bar and produce base materials like silicon. You can setup production chains here to produce more advanced materials like glass and metal. This outpost type would have to be placed over a certain type of resource before you can place the shell.
• Another could be for ship repair and defense oriented purposes. These could be designed in very hostile areas with limited resources. You would be able to moor your ship outside and have bots gradually repair it, and maybe produce a big shield to keep hostile creatures away. It’s significantly more hardened than the other versions.
Of course it is up to you how you want to physically design your outpost inside (placing walls, windows, beds, etc…) but certain tradeoffs have to be made due to power requirements, so specialization is encouraged. Your Cyclops is the link between these outposts (ie… you can do stuff onboard your Cyclops while autopilot takes you to an outpost you’ve established). You can also just do solo piloting/exploring with the Cyclops if that’s what you enjoy more, but you will not have access to the full tech tree that you would if you choose not to construct outposts. Each specialized outpost could gradually research upgrades for your Cyclops sub, and you can determine what upgrades you want to research for it depending on the specialization of that outpost (speed increase, bigger spotlights, reinforced hull, emergency ballasts, medical chamber, etc…). You have a progress monitor on your cyclops HUD to see the progress of your different outposts upgrades. You have to travel to them to complete and install the upgrade on your Cyclops.
All of these outposts should be stepping stones to upgrading your Cyclops and enabling you to explore more efficiently. You’ll need quite a few upgrades if you’re going to brave the deep depths that will probably be a staple of the ‘late’ part of the game. I think using prefab ‘shells’ for each specialized outpost is preferred, then the player can customize the interior depending on their tastes. Outposts should be relatively small and purposeful and not massive, sprawling arenas of empty space. Make a few rooms in each with high quality props, and high levels of player customization. I would also love to see the Cyclops have the same level of customization, if not more.
TL;DR, The tools you use to explore (the cyclops and other vehicles) and upgrading the player himself should be the focus of the game, since its about exploration. The base building aspects are still great for augmenting this experience, but should be the secondary focus. Less minecraft, and more goal oriented exploration, research, and discovery. I do love the idea of high customization inside your small, specialized outposts and Cyclops.
Grid system mechanics
- Basic square or rectangular floor pieces
- Basic square or rectangular wall pieces
- Basic internal doors
- Basic entrance/exit hatch or door
Then ontop of these, you could have the following:
Train set style advanced rooms
- Pre-fabbed curved corridor
- Pre-fabbed dome observation room
- Any of the other rooms listed under "functional ideas" in your design doc
The advantage of this style of system is that you could always add the more advanced pre-fabbed train set style rooms over time, and not necessarily have them all introduced at once. Could even offer some the rooms up in a DLC pack if so desired down the track.
I've seen a lot of creative room designs in games like Rust based off of the simple square wooden foundation pieces you're given. Even if building isn't the primary goal of subnautica, giving the player the really basic tools to create something often leads to some really cool outcomes. People love to create their own little virtual homes/nooks in games - i don't think that goes against the core exploration philosophy at all - if anything, it gives them a solid platform to launch their underwater exploration from, and a safe satisfying place to return to when they have finished exploring for the day.
I also think having some way of making caves airtight would be a cool way to make mining area or a base as long as you don't dig out top of the cave and let all the air out.
Too many parts = bases being broken and basically covering the map in modules and bases so that there is no way to die. The only way to work around this is to have animals or plants degrade the base, but that's annoying unless the atmosphere the predators and predatory animals provide is greatly improved. i.e., they are actually scary instead of just "cool story"
I think pre-made minirooms would be best. The Sims' way of doing things would really waste time on things that are simply not integral to the atmosphere of the game. It's not minecraft, it's not about building. These bases should serve the exploration-- NOT encourage the player to build them everywhere so that they can simply win the game with little to no danger.
Essentially, as a more cohesive way of putting it:
small parts of rooms that aren't customizable but are varied in what they do-- like one part kitchen, one part science, so that they can meld together organically. In this game I think we should keep the sort of "from scratch" element that the fabricator provides to us to a certain degree, and I think that this method would help that atmosphere.
Suggestion and comments post early implementation of corridors:
1. Awesome job on the corridors/connectors, they look great. I love the idea of building a base by connecting cube rooms with these hallways
2. I don't really like the foundation pieces. Was hoping for something along the lines of set pillar prefabs that you could stack on each other to create varying height levels for your base. Rough example...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=398539970
Corridors could require one pillar support per five pieces connected in a straight line and for every corner piece. When not placed on the sea floor, cubes could require one for every cube piece, and/or for every 3x3 (x,z) combined cube room of floor space.
Power conduits could be connected to and run up the pillars from tapped thermal vents or generators placed below
3. Make hatches on the corridors optional
4. The hatches actually look really cool as port hole viewing windows...maybe bumped up a bit in scale
5. Cosmetic/crafting option that turns the top half of the corridor into a semi circle viewing window or (other cosmetic option) perhaps the whole corridor piece is made of glass except for the connection end...with a gang plank walkway running through it.
6. Sticky this thread as the official base building suggestion/brainstorm thread for us to use.
7. Vertical corridors as elevator/lift/ladder shafts.
Another note on the foundation peices. the tube connector and cube room design lends itself so well to customized base building. Combined with the terraformer, the individual pieces are modular and small enough that you could actually tunnel into a reef and build your base inside the tunnels. It is also flexible enough to build your base vertically down the face of a reef cliff into the depths...*if* we have vertical corridors with ladders or lifts and if we are not dependent on the wide foundation pieces. That is where I think single column support pillars could work so much better for functionality while maintaining the look of structural integrity. Thanks again for considering our ideas here.
Looking forward to playing with modular base design as it continues to develop! Building customized modular outposts, research stations, and full on bases in this alien ocean world exploration game is FANTASTIC. You guys rock.
There needs to be a reason to have a base, otherwise you would just stick with your cyclops and keep exploring.
Oxygen generation so you dont need to surface and you need more for each extra module you add
Access to a better equipped lab for analysis and synthesis of specimens. This could mean having power generation and transportation systems eg: tidal power generators, floating solar stations, thermal vents to support the lab
With the lab, a tech tree with gene splicing so you can become an aquatic monster yourself
Sub repair stations
Workshop for reinforcing for subs, radiation shielding for you and the ship for some areas, more advanced weapons (big sea mines and torpedoes for the Kraken that will eventually appear to destroy all you love)
Map room with some positioning systems so you can identify areas you have already been to. (could be tied to mapping bottom with Cyclops or moth)
Floodlights on base so it looks cool at night or in the depths
Ability to disassemble and reassemble somewhere else (another good reason for modualisation)
Being able to grow food (so you don't need to hunt all the time would be handy). This could also mean some sort of automated fish farming mechanism.
Being able to purify water without membrane.
I agree with the posts about modules you build and attach is the best way to go (also a pump to get the water out of each module once you attach it). Fabricating it wall by wall would be a drag.
I am thoroughly for the pre-fab module approach (but pretty like in KSP, not just a bunch of square/rectangle blocks!) where there are a small number of modules available, such as:
Research and Analysis lab
Botany / h20 generation
Power generator
Airlock
Shield generator
Viewing module (mostly toughened glass with all the internal lights dimmed)
Docking bay (fits all size of pilotable craft)
Storage locker room
Desalination facility (could produce salt and fresh water over time but require some other material to function such as membrane for filtration?)
Deep drilling facility
Perhaps a simple ‘connector corridor’ of some kind but don’t go crazy with options for the player. One straight and one corner piece is enough
etc.
Base can provide respite from some of the harsher game conditions - such as the desalination facility, or oxygen generation. This feels like a worthwhile accomplishment for the player!
Each module should be placeable in a way so that it automatically “connects” with existing modules when the placement pointer is near another module’s lock hatch, some should have only one airlock ‘lock’ anchor point, others 2 or 4. This would make the bases look and feel a lot more organic in their construction but still keep the simple ‘grid’ or ‘lego’ style connect-a-room mechanic.
This would allow bases to be fairly simple from a player perspective (not taking focus away from eploration) and would allow each module to be very different in terms of required materials as well as providing a very specific function. It is important not to have a huge base where the player only goes to one or two objects they’ve put inside and the rest is pointless! With each room/module having a specific purpose, it can be completely 100% prefab, it would be very tedious as a player to have to play a mini “sims” inside a diving exploration game. We just want to get back out into the water ASAP! (of course allowing players to place a few objects around is great, like small lockers etc. but as far as placing a fabricator, analyser, generator, research bench, containers, mineral drill, etc.… none of this really enhances the player experience and it all detracts from getting back out and focusing on exploration and research of the environment.
Players should be able to collect research and materials by hand, temporarily storing samples and items in a mobile craft. When they return to base, these can be used for full analysis, as well as refueling and supplying air to the mobile craft ready for the next sortie.
By which I mean... Use pipes to supply power to satellite buildings that might not be directly attached to your main base. Perhaps your power generator could be kept in a safe location, and attached via pipe long distances to buildings you've constructed in areas you want to visit.
If you plan on adding defensive structures (like turrets, for example) at some point, pipes from your buildings act as power conduits to supply electricity to them. If something breaks the pipe connection, the turrets stop functioning allowing creatures to move into areas you've secured.
This adds the element of allowing creatures to interfere with buildings in ways other than "a giant fish monster ate half my base." Perhaps those electrical fish I've seen concepts for are very attracted to your pipe systems to feed, chewing holes in them to siphon out electricity. These holes/broken pipes need to be repaired, or your doors won't open/air won't replenish/etc. This forces the player out of their bases to do maintenance on their pipes in order to keep all their underwater buildings functioning. Keeps players from turtling up in their bases and feeling entirely safe.
Sort of has that "oh god don't go outside, you NEVER go outside!" feeling to it from horror movies. You're in your base working away, suddenly the power goes out and your generator kicks on warning you that you have 30 minutes of air remaining unless power is resupplied. Do you dare go out to fix the pipe lines? Who knows what broke them this time...
You could, theoretically, then add onto this with your "pipe zipline" ideas. Not only would pipes be important for air, but also for electricity and travel between various distant hubs.
This also solves the issue of having a boat load of blinking beacons in every single base, you could instead follow your pipes. I don't know about anyone else, but my screen is mostly blinking lights from all the beacons I have at various spots...
On top of taking up more space than seems necessary, how do you avoid a frustrating implementation of large moon pools and special observatory/overlook room attachments in that type of rigid system? When raised so high off the sea floor to accommodate a Cyclops coming up into the base, won't it look quite weird in this design, not to mention hazardous to navigate? Won't they also hinder creativity if you want to build something like a room that juts out over a reef featuring a large drop off or a corridor tunnel that stretches out into open water - or even a corridor running down through a tunnel system? What about the flexibility to build more vertical oriented bases down the side of a cliff wall?
I've set a few platforms and corridors down in the safe shallows and as they are always slightly raised by default it seems like there is a lot of potential for creatures and the player to get stuck underneath and around them as well. I have already described how I think single pillar supports would work better in an earlier post, but even though I don't like this current system with these broad foundation pieces I don't want to pass final judgment...can you describe for us the benefits and the pros vs the cons with using this style? Thanks.
As for the platforms, I think they make sense as a method for stabilization, and I like them on buildings that are close to the ground, however I do also hope that we can have structures which hang over cliffs, off the side of cliffs etc. I would love to build myself a little apartment or lab on the wall of a trench and look out. Perhaps to maintain physical logic there might be some kind of buoyancy add on? I don't know if we would need to go that far.
Anyway, +1 for supports, but +1 for supports not being created when the ground is a story or two above the ground.
As for customizability, I support as much customizability as we can get, but I can understand people not wanting to have to invest a lot of time in the stations. For my part, that is one thing I am looking forward to is personalizing my base. I want to spend time on it. I don't know where the compromise comes between those two, but I am sure it will pop up.
1: Provide bigger/safer storage than the Cyclops, which is bigger/safer storage than open-water crates and the lifepod.
2: Provide at least one function that cannot be duplicated by the Cyclops
3: Provide a great view.
1 is pretty much already supported, since you can make them bigger and the storage lockers are already implemented. 2 is where the gameplay can go up a notch or two. What could a 'base' do that the cyclops can't? Deeper water? sure, but it's dark down there and there's not that great a view. How about power production? Even a simple current turbine could make power cells and batteries recyclable. Geothermal is better, but 'harder' to find and tap. Cyclops can't really do either, since it's not an anchored device.
Beyond that, it's mostly up to the Devs to decide what kind of additional gameplay elements to include to make bases an attractive option compared to the Cyclops, whether it's basic resource generation (salt, fresh water), cartography/oceanography, research and data compilation, etc. Drilling seems to be a 'something' for 'reasons', but something is to be said about improving quality of life over quantity of stuff. I'm not sure what it brings to the table that is any more player-engaging than scuba-scavenging from a personal, subaquatic mobile base.
Hell, I'd settle for a minibase mounted on a reefback. You KNOW that's prime real estate there.
As far as design goes, i'd say stick with the ship style you have combined with the 'tree' design at the top of your brainstorming chart. Start with specialized rooms that could almost be ships themselves. To handle rapid elevation changes, include 'ramp' modules. Everything should stay anchored to the ground.
An observation module for that oh-so-great view, first, and second floors for the elevated 360. A seamoth moon-pool (why do I feel magical when I say 'moon pool'?) docking room (doubling as an exit portal for the player without a seamoth). General storage module, generator/powercell module. Cyclops docking module (linked to the player hatch). Have the docking hub linked to the surface via pipe-buoy for air. Mining, hydroelectric (power discounts or battery recharging!)
Other base design options are generally too centered around above-ground construction. Building underwater is a lot like building in zero-atmosphere, only inside out.
Hence the tent and the wine coolers ;P ... You could be right, but I'm thinking it won't be quite that long.
dose anyone know if the square pieces will make a return
The best way to describe what I consider to be more "Subnautican" would be to mash the ends of a couple cyclops' into a Lifepod-esque hub, then redesign each of the 'mashed modules' for a particular purpose, such as storage, observation, etc. A lot of these functions can be easily built in, both in terms of interactivity as well as construction materials, without requiring the (haphazardous) free-hand module-component systems. Allow them to be chained end-to-end for long corridors or use hubs to branch out, nothing really should be a 'generic 1m segment' or '10mx10m empty air crate'
If I'm below 200m, the last thing I want is biolum paint with some of the critters they've got planned. Standard issue floodlights will be fine without looking like a giant deepsea fishstick.
Examples (for brainstorming only):
- Modules placed farthest from a generator would get powered off first when there is limited power
- Bots which perform certain automatic support actions (going to two or more rooms) - so if they are close the bots could do their task faster
- Generators and backup batteries could potentially explode during flooding and damage nearby modules
- Research labs near atriums and aquariums research biological tech faster
- Research labs near control rooms make sub augmentations work better
- Research labs near storage rooms make mining work more efficiently
- Storage rooms attract mites which can spread to nearby modules and infect them
- Atriums and aquariums placed in a room with windows make the captive life less likely to die
- Aquariums too close to a window may get the window attacked from the outside by a predator
- Flooded atriums kill everything inside (so keeping them off the lowest floors is a good idea)
- Without maintenance, a room's modules will start to work less efficiently - this can be done by either the player (early game) or a bot (later game)
Though I agree flooding should be dangerous, destroying the player's work is rarely the way to go IMO-- unless there is a way to safeguard against it via another craftable item.
I also personaly would like to be able to build those tubes with ladders down, i have a borehole from the starting area down into the shroom caves and i would like to a build a large surface lab with tube runing down through the sea bed conecting to anothe smaller base in caves with things like a moon pool and dock for the seamoth, a sort of staging area to explore the caves from.Would like to build and unobtruisive glass corridor system through the caves with exits at reguar intervals for long term study. I like the idea of a ingame encyclopedia as long as its gets updated with things we "discover" about the enviroment with some sort of science equipent. maybe a water filled verison of the fragment analyser made of glass with the arms from the fabrictor to put small fish in to analyze and a hand held ( Waterproof tricorder) scanner for bigger things.
I see the cyclops are more of a mobile staging area and prospector for future base sites, you could have a lab in each biosphere and use the cyclops to move inbetween them and find and reach new cool spots. And like somone else already said they could all have a primary purpose with a second being science. Like a thermal elctric genertor base that doubles as lab to study the lava zone and make betterys etc
i also think we need some kind of map with a fog of war or somehting becaus atm way to easy to go around in circles and not see some parts of world. It would be great for the consloe in the cyclps with depth and speed guage, you could even build on on base.
i also REALLY like the idea of sealing and draining caves the posabiltis there are endless and fun
Stuff like that to me makes in seem more imersive. Similar to real life but more advanced.
If you can forgive the paint and the defacement of one of your proto-type images, I would make a suggestion:
Wow, totally didn't realise this had been Necro'd, thought you were asking about making the bases more room like... Apologies, anyway, still it's an idea i'd like to see...
Why did you necro this long dead thread?