Biomass

nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
Make it a mod? I hate it with a passion and much prefer the previous alien gameplay, but now can't play it.

For the sake of us who enjoyed the previous builds of NS2, please turn this biomass thing into a mod.
ChuckECheeseKamamuraGhosthree3kais_4BestProfileNameMuckyMcFly
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Comments

  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Posts: 514Members
    There is a build 249 mod and there was 2 full servers last time I was playing.
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
    Thanks! But there's obviously going to come a point when us playing on those 249 servers will miss out on new and wanted features and will then have to upgrade to the biomass rubbish.
  • SolidSpiderSolidSpider Join Date: 2013-04-14 Member: 184805Posts: 46Members
    Hate it with a passion? Geez, you have a specific reason for that? It's fine imo.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,470Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Biomass: Health scale that unlocks abilities for research.

    Problem?
    ChuckECheesetk-421Ghosthree3kais_4
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
    Yes. The problem is that the previous method was better.
    ChuckECheeseBalmarktk-421ritualsacrificekais_4Discowitz
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Posts: 380Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    nsguy wrote: »
    Yes. The problem is that the previous method was better.

    How come?
    It was so restricted and made the alien game depend too much on getting the 2nd hive before they could even start getting anything interesting strategywise
    peregrinusBestProfileName
  • TerranigmaTerranigma Join Date: 2010-04-03 Member: 71158Posts: 67Members
    So. And for what reason?
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
    edited June 2013
    kalakuja wrote: »
    nsguy wrote: »
    Yes. The problem is that the previous method was better.

    How come?
    It was so restricted and made the alien game depend too much on getting the 2nd hive before they could even start getting anything interesting strategywise

    If you couldn't get a second hive then it was over for you and that still is the case, but it's not as though it wouldn't have been possible to make upgrades available from the first hive...
    Post edited by nsguy on
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Posts: 1,470Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    No health scale with hive number or tres investment. Evolutions unlock in tiers with the number of hives, cannot get umbra or bile on 1 hive. Must get previous tiers to unlock the later ones regardless of hive number.

    I don't care if you like the system or not, just curious why you think it worsens the game.
    ezekel
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Posts: 1,182Members, NS2 Playtester
    nsguy wrote: »
    Yes. The problem is that the previous method was better.

    The one where aliens didn't scale in HP at all and Skulks just became cannonfodder for any marine with W3 in the lategame?
    Suggestions:
    Tech Path of Hive actually upgrades the Hive itself
    Give Gorges telepathic control over their Bait Ball for Overlord-style commanding of Babblers

    And please allow to turn rooms into emergency-lit or dark versions if infestations grows over an unbuilt or damaged power node socket.
    peregrinus
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
    edited June 2013
    Jekt wrote: »
    I don't care if you like the system or not, just curious why you think it worsens the game.

    Because I think it is overcomplicating the upgrade system and because it has removed some of the fun strategies that made aliens fun to command and which made commanding against the aliens fun, such as sneaky shifts that allowed for surpise attacks. Also, these structures (shift, etc.) now double as both structures for attacking and defending, and for upgrading abilites; taking on too many roles.
    CrushaK wrote: »
    nsguy wrote: »
    Yes. The problem is that the previous method was better.

    The one where aliens didn't scale in HP at all and Skulks just became cannonfodder for any marine with W3 in the lategame?

    If the aliens needed more HP (which I don't think they needed) then they could have simply added a new upgrade structure which does so. This would have easily fit in with the usual RTS approach to upgrades.
    Post edited by nsguy on
    RisingSunSamus1111111tk-421Tweadle
  • RoflcopterV22RoflcopterV22 Arizona Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184616Posts: 106Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Personally I notice that the majority seems to prefer the biomass system, so I don't see it going away anytime soon-but there is a mod for B249, if you believe that mod will do what you're hoping for you can

    A) Ask a modder to create a mod of what you want to see
    B) Create aforementioned mod yourself.
    I'm the kind of guy who would xenocide while teambalance is on.
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,391Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team admin
    Aliens not scaling throughout the round has been a top 5 complaint for the past 3 years. We tried using structures to scale in the alpha and beta, and it didn't work.
    This is the best implementation i've seen yet.

    Those fun strategies still exist as well, @nsguy , you can echo with shift, rupture anywhere on infestation, drifter abilities like shade hive: hallucinate, shift hive: storm cloud/movement speed, crag hive: mucous membrane/heals armor , decide whether you wish to support the field players by increasing strength of upgrades or researching evolutions, or going for a stronger overall HP, or simply team expansion.

    There's now more options and more fun strategies than before.. you just gotta discover them all now :)

    I do agree regarding the evolutions being tied to structures though, to force their usage... but after you get over the unintuitive aspect of it, you find its actually helpful to drop that structure anyways 9 times out of 10.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
    http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/
    EmooRisingSuntk-421
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Posts: 819Members
    IronHorse wrote: »

    Those fun strategies still exist as well, @nsguy

    I think he means the shitft spawning eggs. Which is the main thing i miss, too. Commanding became way more boring just because of this little change. I don't know how other people commanded before, but spawning eggs at stategic locations was awesome.

    I like 90% of the other changes in 250 though.
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Posts: 238Members
    I have no problem with the new abilities of structures and the new shade hive abilities. I dislike the new drifter and absolutely hate the biomass system. This update was too much of a jump from the previous version.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Posts: 406Members
    Bio mass needs to work on a "bio mass" basis, not a research basis. There is already a 200 unit limit on structures just link that to biomass and get rid of the hive upgrade...

  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Posts: 3,470Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    You say you hate it but give no reasons why.
    The only sort of reasons you gave so far are:

    "Because I think it is overcomplicating the upgrade system and because it has removed some of the fun strategies that made aliens fun to command and which made commanding against the aliens fun, such as sneaky shifts that allowed for surpise attacks. Also, these structures (shift, etc.) now double as both structures for attacking and defending, and for upgrading abilites; taking on too many roles.
    &
    If the aliens needed more HP (which I don't think they needed) then they could have simply added a new upgrade structure which does so. This would have easily fit in with the usual RTS approach to upgrades. "

    * This new build has far far far more depth and strategies then the previous build. You can echo eggs in at a slightly higher cost if you include the hive egg spawn.
    * you can use any structure like a crag/shift/shade on any hive.
    * drifters are a mobile support thing with there abilities now.
    * earlier upgrades for your aliens on 1 hive allows for diverse play.
    * the 3 chambers for all upgrades we have in this build allows more diversity. Also making regen/celer work in combat adds to this change. Aura is almost op.
    * They did add a new upgrade for health. Its called biomass, the very thing you dislike. That it also enabled other stuff isnt a problem.

    While i would love less on those structures and more on the hive in terms of upgrades, its a far cry to say it doubles to much. Unlike shells, its not a problem to lose after unlock as far as I know.
    CatCop
  • EmooEmoo Ibasa Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11198Posts: 535Members
    nsguy wrote: »
    I dislike the new drifter and absolutely hate the biomass system. This update was too much of a jump from the previous version.

    Is your issue with the drifter the lack of cloaking? I've seen that mentioned a lot. Causes Aliens to pretty much be constantly scouting because drifters don't really make great scout posts anymore.

    Biomass seems ok to me, I've got a few issues with it but they're minor.
    A) The health scaling overlaps with carapace too much for my liking, but this is more a flaw of carapace than biomass.
    B) Upgrades on crags/shifts/shades isn't really intuitive. I can see why it's done that way, but even after a few games as khamm I keep having the check the tooltips to see which one I need to build for which upgrade.
    C) Numbers MIGHT need tweaking, but just have to play it out and see how things are used.
    Ingame name = Ibasa
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,193Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Gorge health biomass 1: 160/75
    Gorge health biomass 2: 162/75
    Gorge health biomass 3: 164/75

    Am I doing something wrong? o_o Is it really that tiny?
    image
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Posts: 513Members, Constellation
    IronHorse wrote: »
    ... but after you get over the unintuitive aspect of it, you find its actually helpful to drop that structure anyways 9 times out of 10.

    Unintuitive is a strong keyword. Let's hope players will get over that point of unintuition.
    Freak out
  • joohoo_n3djoohoo_n3d Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164703Posts: 212Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter
    250 is way more fun than vanilla ns2 and more like the level of gameplay that made the original NS so awesome! biomass is fun and adds more interest to the gameplay...even if not perfect :)
  • culpritculprit Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33527Posts: 310Members, Constellation
    The biomass system certainly has me a bit confused. I need to spend some time in the sandbox mode to see if I can come to terms with it and understand the strategy options available within it. I remember reading something about more structures = more biomass, but I also understand there are biomass upgrades for hives, and certain biomass levels are required to unlock abilities. Just seems pretty convoluted on first glance. Add in having abilities unlocked on shade/shift/crag (this is very odd).

    It seems to be really important to hide a cache of structures away so they don't get sniped. I keep seeing that happening in games I play. You lose abilities and upgrades that can't just be re-built with ease like an ArmsLab.

    I've been really digging 250 though, just the khaam changes have me a bit perplexed.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,193Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I don't even know if it's worth getting more than 4 biomass lol. You get leap then, after that there's nothing good. Stomp, SS, ...well spores are good, but yeah... And the HP gain doesn't seem significant? Well, gotta experiment more.
    image
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Posts: 245Members
    I don't even know if it's worth getting more than 4 biomass lol. You get leap then, after that there's nothing good. Stomp, SS, ...well spores are good, but yeah... And the HP gain doesn't seem significant? Well, gotta experiment more.

    3 extra biomass costs 80 res (hive 40 res + 2 * 20 res upgrade) Fade gets 30 extra hp and Onos 150 ( + 10 and + 50 per level). Thats nearly the same amount of carapace. One more biomass-up and it IS even. Biomass just sucks for gorge and Lerk ( only +2 hp per biomass level WTF?!). For Skulks its ok (+4 hp per level)

  • MaximumSquidMaximumSquid Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Posts: 627Members
    Two problems with biomass is it creates a very linear progression for aliens and removed a few proven tech rush strats

    As a side effect aliens mid-game is ridiculously predictable. . .
    Since egg lock is out pretty well every marine strat I've seen so far is to shutdown aliens during mid-game when they have no cards in their hand
    nsguy
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 963Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It sucks that you can't rush xenocide anymore. 2 rather fast hives -> leap -> xeno, that's like 135 res? And you don't need no upgrades for xeno! just get shift and spam eggs.
    But now... uh oh, gotta get so much biomass, it just doesn't worth it.
  • cyanidecyanide Join Date: 2013-06-15 Member: 185567Posts: 41Members
    YOU HEARD THE MAN REVERT IT TO A MOD IMMEDIATELY!
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,103Members
    edited July 2013
    Emoo wrote: »
    countbasie wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »

    Those fun strategies still exist as well, @nsguy

    I think he means the shitft spawning eggs. Which is the main thing i miss, too. Commanding became way more boring just because of this little change. I don't know how other people commanded before, but spawning eggs at stategic locations was awesome.

    I like 90% of the other changes in 250 though.

    You can still echo eggs to strategic locations.

    do echoed eggs get spawn priority?
    Post edited by amoral on
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Posts: 1,103Members
    edited July 2013
    i dislike building limits for aliens, the res cost should be limit enough, why add an additional constraint?

    or at least make it so i can suicide a building more easily, or up the damn walk speed. oh, wait, i can echo it can't i? still, i don't like the building limits. no such limit on marine side.
    Post edited by amoral on
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