What happened to...

[R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Posts: 151Members
edited May 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Core experiences of NS1 missing in NS2
These are the things that got me hooked on NS1, and kept me playing.

-Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive.
-Moving as a squad to a siege point, holding off aliens while advanced turret factory was researching, then dropping siege turrets and pushing in.
-Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive.
-Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.
-Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.
-The gorge rush.
-Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.
-Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat.
-Welding through a door to take down a hive (was fun for both teams attacking and defending)

I have yet to experience any of my favorite things about NS1 in NS2 and it bothers me. It isn't the same game and I get that, but when I hear NS, I think of the above. I've taken at look at how things are implemented in both games and can't help but feel the new implementation of multiple features may have a "cool factor" about them in NS2, but the impact on game play seems to be a let down imo.

I'll use turrets and sieges as an example. Sure its cool to have a mobile siege turret, but the aliens can see it coming and attack it long before it ever reaches it's destination. You have very little chance of ever sneaking into position like in NS1. As turrets go, again it's cool you can drop and aim and re-position them, but the limited attack radius of them makes them much less cost efficient. My point here I guess is I feel too much emphasis is being put on making things more complicated and cool looking but not enough consideration is on the result of those things.

I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, I just wanted to make my point. I did not make this post to troll or say NS1 was a better game or want to come across as telling UWE what they should do, I just want to get my thoughts out there in case others feel the same way. I want NS2 to succeed like everyone, but the real magic that made me an NS addict just isn't there for me in NS2.
Post edited by Unknown User on
My ns2cmod preview
Join NS2:C Steam Group
Designer @Red Storm Entertainment
Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
«134

Comments

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE
    Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive.

    I still do this all the time as comm, power packs allow for the ninja element, and once map sight on infestation is removed for aliens (next patch hopefully), you will see a lot more of that for sure. Also GL and SG rushes in general are still a big thing, arguably even one of the best ways to win as marines currently, with or without PGs (depending on starting positions)

    QUOTE
    -Moving as a squad to a siege point, holding off aliens while advanced turret factory was researching, then dropping siege turrets and pushing in.

    Yea, ARC trains being built safely in base is a hot topic being discussed ever since they were implemented. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of it.

    QUOTE
    -Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive.

    I still see that occasionally, certainly when good players are around, though unfortunately a lot of players are completely oblivious to the importance of taking out arms labs, observatories, shells and (in 206) alien extractors in the hive room early on. It's like skulks wasting time on biting power nodes, it takes time for a 'metagame' to evolve.

    QUOTE
    -Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.

    Another hot topic, I personally too really miss having a trade-off on GLs. Currently they're just a nobrainer upgrade when you have the p.res for them.

    QUOTE
    -Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.

    I still see this happen regularly, often lerks with bilebombs lead the way on this. (Or onos powernode rushes) Though this only happens in 'longer' games, which are still somewhat uncommon in NS 2. (Marines tend to just get stomped once aliens get augment up, no time or res to properly lock down a hive room.)

    QUOTE
    The gorge rush.

    Alive and kicking since 206

    QUOTE
    -Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.

    Another hot topic, though UWE is definitely sticking to their guns on this one.

    QUOTE
    -Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat.

    Again not very common due to the absence of long games (and by long games I mean long games that aren't just games already won by either side which are just being dragged out, particularly marines are good at dragging out their defeat, with sentryspam) Will hopefully improve when proper balancing is done.


    Anyway, I'd say hang in there, really. Most of the stuff you loved in NS 1 is still there in one form or another, or is definitely going to come back. As an oldskool NS player myself, I had a hard time accepting some of the big design changes as well, particularly the alien khammander addition, but I've slowly come around and have really started enjoying NS 2. (despite all it's flaws, which are hopefully just temporarily)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • kababkabab Join Date: 2003-12-15 Member: 24384Posts: 560Members, Constellation
    edited May 2012
    Well there is no solid reason anymore to tie command centres to tech points they could always remove the tech point requirement for CC and make the game much more dynamic with very little side effects...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Posts: 1,240Members
    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Apr 30 2012, 06:53 PM) »

    These are the things that got me hooked on NS1, and kept me playing.

    -Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive.
    -Moving as a squad to a siege point, holding off aliens while advanced turret factory was researching, then dropping siege turrets and pushing in.
    -Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive.
    -Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.
    -Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.
    -The gorge rush.
    -Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.
    -Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat.

    I have yet to experience any of my favorite things about NS1 in NS2 and it bothers me. It isn't the same game and I get that, but when I hear NS, I think of the above. I've taken at look at how things are implemented in both games and can't help but feel the new implementation of multiple features may have a "cool factor" about them in NS2, but the impact on game play seems to be a let down imo.

    I'll use turrets and sieges as an example. Sure its cool to have a mobile siege turret, but the aliens can see it coming and attack it long before it ever reaches it's destination. You have very little chance of ever sneaking into position like in NS1. As turrets go, again it's cool you can drop and aim and re-position them, but the limited attack radius of them makes them much less cost efficient. My point here I guess is I feel too much emphasis is being put on making things more complicated and cool looking but not enough consideration is on the result of those things.

    I'm gonna keep this short and sweet, I just wanted to make my point. I did not make this post to troll or say NS1 was a better game or want to come across as telling UWE what they should do, I just want to get my thoughts out there in case others feel the same way. I want NS2 to succeed like everyone, but the real magic that made me an NS addict just isn't there for me in NS2.


    its been echoed for awhile, deaf ears. waste of time, just hope someone makes a good mod.
    Lethal Assassin
    user posted image
  • Raza.Raza. Join Date: 2004-01-24 Member: 25663Posts: 711Members, Constellation
    Well, a few of these things still happen (see Xarius' post), but in general this ...

    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 1 2012, 02:53 AM) »

    I've taken at look at how things are implemented in both games and can't help but feel the new implementation of multiple features may have a "cool factor" about them in NS2, but the impact on game play seems to be a let down imo.


    ... is how I feel about NS2.

  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Posts: 1,677Members
    So there was this NS2c mod floating about, but it doesn't seem to have a centralized place for discussion, bit like a super secret mod that makes NS2 fun but only a select few get to play it. Or flayra went over to the author's house and commited horrible horrible slaughtercide, that's possible too...
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Posts: 517Members
    edited May 2012
    http://www.mediafire.com/?qzz7qlk33rbz50s

    Is the version on the ds server atm.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited May 2012
    It's just available for download, though I don't think you'll have a lot of people playing it until automatic downloading comes in and/or NS 2 is in a more polished state in general. (Bigger community, better performance) I'd say for now it's just beneficial if we just all contribute towards making NS 2 a better game, rather than to already turn to an NS 2 Classic mod out of nostalgia. (NS2C is also still far from finalised afaik)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Posts: 549Members
    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Apr 30 2012, 07:53 PM) »

    -Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.


    Yeah I wish this was still possible. Especially once ns1 map remakes start finishing. Playing eclipse wont quite be the same if you cant relocate to keyhole/loop. Likewise with ns_nothing and generator room (though I suspect this will be make a tech-point anyway).

    One thing i'm also going to miss is rushing to take down the obs when attacking marine start. Even though there's beacon, it doesn't revive everybody anymore (and thank god, as it would be way too overpowered now it can beacon to different tech points other than marine start). Therefore, most of the time anyway, it's probably better to go straight for the power node (unless they're all alive and out on a rush away from base, in which case, maybe obs first as it takes less to kill than a power node).
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    Yes something aren't there anymore like relocating freely, and the feeling of tension when you're being stalked by aliens.

    But other things are still there - gorges rushes for one - and NS2 has things NS1 didn't like awesome gorge gardens, goo sculptures, and infestation.
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Posts: 268Members
    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ Apr 30 2012, 08:53 PM) »

    -Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.

    I'd really want a more specialized GL (as in NS1), it's much more interesting with trade-offs and choices, and it would really make for some better teamplay and strategies. I hope we see this some time.
    TheMarker
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Posts: 1,677Members
    QUOTE (peregrinus @ May 1 2012, 01:02 PM) »
    and NS2 has things NS1 didn't like awesome gorge gardens, goo sculptures, and infestation.

    Should I have been reading that in a sarcastic voice?
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    If you can't accept people have different opinions, yes.
  • playerplayer Join Date: 2010-09-12 Member: 73982Posts: 1,677Members
    When people go on about goo-gardens\sculptures you can't blame me for asking honestly. Must've been thinking about the other guy.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Posts: 365Members
    yep. not the same.

    NS2 still has some good/great moments, but it is clogged up with extra stuff that isnt holding together quite yet.

    NS2 is too procedural right now, or at least that is the word i think of.




  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Posts: 872Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (d0ped0g @ May 1 2012, 12:39 PM) »
    One thing i'm also going to miss is rushing to take down the obs when attacking marine start. Even though there's beacon, it doesn't revive everybody anymore (and thank god, as it would be way too overpowered now it can beacon to different tech points other than marine start). Therefore, most of the time anyway, it's probably better to go straight for the power node (unless they're all alive and out on a rush away from base, in which case, maybe obs first as it takes less to kill than a power node).


    This is something i dont like. NS1 has choices when rushing a base: Kill the AA to slow the marines, Kill the obs to make all available marines run home, Kill an arms lab to give a brief Focus advantage (one shot kill), Kill the Proto Lab to halt jps and heavies for a time, and griefing the IP for free RFK on spawn. There were CHOICES.

    Now it just rush the powernode or munch the CC for an easy win.

    If i have to deal with 2 hour long turtle games just so i can get the NS1 choices back, ill take it gladly.
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Posts: 803Members
    the closest we got charlie to admit his ideas dont work, we were told we didn't like change. I guess its our fault. But really, that's charlie reply regrading this sort of things, we don't like change. And The reply most old vets get here, "go make a mod". Nice eh?

    this topic will die like anything relating to NS1 generally here, fanboys don't like it and newcomers have no idea what that is.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,700Members
    I don't think I miss any single feature or situation that much, but I do miss the sharp stripped down purposefulness and efficiency NS1 had. Sharp engine performance and relatively simple rules that then ended up creating a beautiful flow of gameplay, movement, decisions and possibilities. It felt like everything from damage numbers to shape of buildings was made to interact and dance with everything else in the game.
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Posts: 151Members
    edited May 2012
    QUOTE (luns @ May 1 2012, 03:20 PM) »
    the closest we got charlie to admit his ideas dont work, we were told we didn't like change. I guess its our fault. But really, that's charlie reply regrading this sort of things, we don't like change. And The reply most old vets get here, "go make a mod". Nice eh?

    this topic will die like anything relating to NS1 generally here, fanboys don't like it and newcomers have no idea what that is.


    I don't monitor these forums enough to know what has ever been said in the past but I want to personally state that I embrace change when it is justified/needed and actually improves the game. Changing things for the sake of making them "cool" or more complicated does not make something necessarily better.

    The core experience of NS should not be changed imo, rather built upon and upgraded where warranted. I'm not sure if UWE feels they actually have changed either intentionally or unintentionally the core experience but I just wanted to make my case for why I think it feels like a completely different game and not a proper sequel. For the record there are things I like in NS2 and think UWE did a great job on making improvements on things such as marines getting their own weapons at the armory etc. It's the odd changes that killed the NS game play I know and loved that I don't agree with and I was just curious why.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    My ns2cmod preview
    Join NS2:C Steam Group
    Designer @Red Storm Entertainment
    Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    I can't remember Charlie ever saying critics of NS2 don't like change.

    He said NS2 is a sequal not a remake. He's allowing - and encouraging - all NS2 players to mod the game.

    It's not like Battlefield 3 where they made a screwed version of Battlefield 2, AND stopped anyone from modding the new game.

    Anyway back to the topic...

    ...I miss commanders dropping the weapons for marines, and having that military hierarchy which made rines feel so different from aliens.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Posts: 365Members
    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 1 2012, 12:46 PM) »

    Changing things for the sake of making them "cool" or more complicated does not make something necessarily better.

    It's the odd changes that killed the NS game play I know and loved that I don't agree with and I was just curious why.


    one intent was to reduce the learning curve for a casual player with shorter/mediumish game lengths, on average. pretty sure that was the driver for some of the ideas - fixed tech points, lines of control (powernodes, infestation). also, idea is to have reasonable balance over various game sizes, hence resource model.

    im not convinced the learning curve has been helped all that much by the new features. also, not clear if the res model will really solve the balance problem with various game sizes yet either - in theory perhaps. need feature complete, high performing game to test with various sizes.

    But ... i expect the game will end up with more varied and dynamic play than it has now.
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Posts: 151Members
    QUOTE (peregrinus @ May 1 2012, 05:02 PM) »
    I miss commanders dropping the weapons for marines, and having that military hierarchy which made rines feel so different from aliens.


    That is a change I can live with and while I don't disagree with you about it reducing the marine/commander relationship I definitely find it a good thing. A player who does things well by building structures and helping the team in ways other than being a good shooter should be able to purchase upgraded weapons if he/she so chooses regardless of the commander thinking he's a noob and not deserving of a better gun.
    My ns2cmod preview
    Join NS2:C Steam Group
    Designer @Red Storm Entertainment
    Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
  • echsechs Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11568Posts: 403Members, Constellation
    NS2 is good, but NS1 is far more fun. That's not good, right? :<
    Honelith
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    QUOTE ([R8]DJBourgeoisie @ May 1 2012, 02:53 AM) »


    -Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.


    Really need hive teleportation like in NS1 for that.
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,135Members
    edited May 2012
    I got gorge rushed the other day, buggers are deadly if they manage to get their hydras down!

    I miss how damn beefy the com chair was in NS1. After a reloc it would often be the one building left in marine start but would survive for a very long time (just cause no one wanted to waste time killing the damn thing!) You know what they say, a safe comm is a happy comm.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • paradoxumparadoxum Join Date: 2012-03-05 Member: 148193Posts: 370Members
    QUOTE (1dominator1 @ May 2 2012, 04:46 PM) »
    I got gorge rushed the other day, buggers are deadly if they manage to get their hydras down!

    I miss how damn beefy the com chair was in NS1. After a reloc it would often be the one building left in marine start but would survive for a very long time (just cause no one wanted to waste time killing the damn thing!) You know what they say, a safe comm is a happy comm.


    haha yeah those things even *looked* more solid than the current ones, which just look like 4 walls made out of some sheets of metal that an onos could stab through in one hit.
  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Posts: 151Members
    So back to my original post, is there anyone else who feels those things are missing or just not as satisfying to do in NS2, or am I the minority here?
    My ns2cmod preview
    Join NS2:C Steam Group
    Designer @Red Storm Entertainment
    Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
  • goblingoblin Join Date: 2004-09-05 Member: 31412Posts: 242Members
    it's a beta, there are missing features and the performance isnt good enough

    when the game is complete and a lot o people playing it (some hilarious ones), come back and make this post again...
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Posts: 174Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    There are still many who believe the same as you DJ. But alot of them have moved on. The game is being forced into a linear style of play, and is just not as fun as NS1 was. Thats the only point I have about ns2. I dont have some "misguided" love for NS1 that I cant see beyond, I just dont see ns2 being as dynamic, or enjoyable as NS1 was, and the direction it is going, does not show promise for ever being that way.

    I know alot of people who have the same concerns as you, and many of us have been very vocal about the whole thing, but in alot of ways feel ignored.

    NS2 just isnt what NS1 was, and it may never be.
  • Master BlasterMaster Blaster Join Date: 2012-03-17 Member: 148908Posts: 264Banned
    I agree with some of what [R8]DJBourgeoisie says.


    -Dropping a ninja phase gate, beaconing all marines to base, and shotgun rushing a hive.

    ~I have done this with a phase gate and a power pack and a very clever and good marine who got into a good spot in Flight Control on Summit, but yes it is not happening as much anymore.

    -Rushing into marine start taking out a key structure (advanced armory) setting up a push on a marine controlled hive.

    ~THis is also missing, but like the ninja phase gate I think it has to do with the SMALL MAPS!!! WHERE BIG MAPS??? WHERE?Also it has to do with the players more than the game itself.

    -Protecting the GL'er while he targeted the hive/structures.

    ~Class differentiation is missing as well but I don't know if this is a big deal until we get exosuits and shift chambers 2 years from now.


    -Retaking a hive after marines have "locked it down" with a phase gate/turret factory/turrets/sieges/obs.

    -The gorge rush.
    ~Now lerk rush?

    -Relocating to "random" points in levels not always in a hive.

    ~This is something which I wish was in NS2. I don't like being restricted like that. Its much more fun if you have total freedom of map control.

    -Re-taking a 3rd hive from the marines and preparing for their counter-attack which decides victory or defeat.

    ~Dunno.


    I don't know if any of these points have to do with NS1 having more appeal right now, but the relocation restriction is definitely part of it.


  • [R8]DJBourgeoisie[R8]DJBourgeoisie Join Date: 2007-09-05 Member: 62176Posts: 151Members
    Has there ever been any official reason given for the changes to siege/turrets and how they worked? I don't understand why they reduced the effectiveness of turrets by limiting their attack radius resulting in marines spamming them everywhere just to cover a simple box. Regarding arcs, again why do they have to deploy out of a box and roll across the map all the while aliens scramble to attack them all the way instead of dropping them down the same way they worked in NS1? I'm just genuinely curious how the new implementation of these and other features shared by NS1 and NS2 are supposed to be better in NS2, or maybe I am misunderstanding their purpose in NS2? I'd love it if someone on the team (tester/dev) could inform me on this subject, or if anyone reading this knows the answer. If they aren't actually supposed to be better but just cooler I can live with that, but I think it would be a terrible reason for the change.

    My ns2cmod preview
    Join NS2:C Steam Group
    Designer @Red Storm Entertainment
    Currently working on Rainbow Six Patriots
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.