Augmentation - a fix suggestion idea

Angry Hillbilly 2Angry Hillbilly 2 Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Posts: 111Members
edited April 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Theres a lot of talk going on about this build which as everyone knows. Alien gets Augmentation. game over.

I think the major problem is that augmentation unlocks everything at once which is like saying "READ THIS BOOK AND U WILL KNOW EVERYTHING EVER" sort of thing and it leaves absaloutly NO room stratagy or punishing decisions. Yes if a hive is lost the aliens have to start all over again with Aug and if the second hive is the aug hive it ends up being a game over as even though another hive is avalible the chance of any defence against arc trains (another problem for another topic entirely) is drastically reduced.

At the moment aliens attackin without aug and vice versa marrines attacking when Aug is there is what my biology teacher used to say in his geordie accent "Its like carrying coals to newcastle" meaning its pointless. (and the saying means that cus newcastle along with sunderland were 2 of the largest mining towns in the uk newcastle esspecially for coal.)

The way I think is to fix this is to seperate the differant ablities research (evolution) wise so the commander has decisions to make on what sort of path his team goes. So at an extreem level of this each new attack would require research or perhaps upgrading each class of creature to levels rather like the marrines weapons armour research. It would allow for a lot of varied gameplay and actually give the alien commander a little more to do apart from pruning the bushes and general gardening :P

The scale:


Far end of seperation of research:

Individual attacks require research so e.g bilebomb, blink..etc

Middle of spectra:

Each species gets a level research (of coruse would require a much more organic and awesome name other than level :P)

Lerk:
level 0 = no upgrades
Level 1 = Bile bomb
Level 2 = Faster flight....etc other stuff could be inserted here if wanted to

Fade:

Unlock
Level 0 = no upgrades
Level 1 = Blink..etc

Upper middle:

Groups of aliens style upgrades:

Light class: Skulk, Gorge.

Light class level 0 = no upgrades
Light class level 1 = leap, clogs..etc

medium class: Lerk, Fade?

Medium class level 0 = no upgrades
Medium class level 1 = Blink, Bile Bomb

Heavy class: Onos, Fade?

...etc

Top end of spectra:

No breakdown Augmentation as it is.


Now all of this is completly a random idea but i think it could definatly be a way to make it a much more stratagy style of play and slow down the aliens to a nice middle pace along with the marrines. Im not sure how it would work if a building was lost that had all the upgrades as this would be increadibly irritateing for aliens if lost back to square one which in late game is basically game over.

What ya all think?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • noncomposmentisnoncomposmentis Join Date: 2004-11-13 Member: 32773Posts: 342Members
    This isn't a new idea by any means but it remains one of the more reasonable approaches to the problems with augmentation. I have difficulty understanding some of the overreaction in this forum, even by players with a lot of NS experience. I think they should try a small increase in Aug cost first to see if that does the job, and if it doesn't, maybe splitting the abilities would work.

    Also a common suggestion is to require researching lifeforms before they can be used. It would have largely the same effect in that it provides more of a slow ramp up in alien power versus the very on/off switch dynamic at play in current versions of NS.

    Anyway, all of this talk about getting rid of pres or energy or whatever flavor of the day revamp is really pointless. The game isn't that unbalanced at the moment. Small nudges in the right direction are the way to go. I feel like Charlie should have learned this lesson from differences between development of NS 3.0 and NS 2.0 beta, but maybe he's forgotten.
    The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.
    - Thomas Jefferson
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    I really thought and hoped they would've gone with the 'research every single ability' approach, since that would have actually added at least some form of depth to the alien khammander. I think everyone will agree aliens need more T.res sinks, giving them more choices and a much greater variety in playstyles. Cutting the augmentation up would already be a big step in accomplishing this (and it would solve the issue of the current augmentation being too cheap and too fast)

    In addition, they really need to rethink the whole nutrient mist thing, it being the only ability on hive energy just makes it a no-brainer for 6-min augmentation. I think the triple resource system in general should be reconsidered, but if they insist on keeping it then they will have to at least come up with a lot more abilities that cost energy and p.res (for both sides, though it seems like they are moving away from using p.res for anything but weapons and lifeforms, might as well remove it entirely for commanders then imo)

    QUOTE
    Also a common suggestion is to require researching lifeforms before they can be used. It would have largely the same effect in that it provides more of a slow ramp up in alien power versus the very on/off switch dynamic at play in current versions of NS.
    UWE has made it pretty clear on these forums they're not a big fan of tying tech to lifeforms for various reasons. I somewhat agree with the approach, but then they need to come up with a proper way to scale the onos from early to late game and slow the rate at which aliens get these lifeforms.

    If they insist on keeping it a 1-button-upgrades-all-lifeform type augmentation, then it should cost at least 50 t.res imo because it really is a gamechanger.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,761Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    I also feel the current design of Hive Augmentation/"Tier 2" to be quite linearly lackluster. Any experienced Kharaa commander will try to upgrade Augmentation ASAP, for the power it unlocks is more game-changing than any other upgrade.

    I believe the devs have considered some of these idea (which can be easily implemented):

    * Each Kharaa can evolve "Augmentation", which takes one Evolution slot, to unlock additional abilities of its class (eg Leap for Skulk). eg With one Hive, a Skulk may only choose one upgrade, from Leap, Carapace, Regen, or Camouflage, and so on.

    * Augmentation is automatically unlocked once a Hive matures. There may even be multiple levels of Augmentation, reached at different stages of Hive maturity.

    * Mist can be used to speed up maturation, but costs Team Res. This creates more choices for the Khammander: Do you wait for the Hive to mature for free, or pay extra resources to speed up the process?
    (Mist is probably a WIP which needs more balance changes. eg Only affects the Hive when used specifically on the Hive.)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,326Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    i was thinking about the same idea. but instead of having groups, my idea was that you would need to upgrade each life form individually (button for skulk lvl 1 leap, skulk lvl 2 xenocide, lerk level 1 bilebomb etc.)

    the upgrades would be done at the hive, so the incentive to grab another hive (despite of having more mist and better respawn) would be to have another research running in parallel to the first hive. the upgrade would need a reasonable amount of time to complete, to make 2 hive and 3 hive play valid tactics, but also 1 hive play should be supported. depends solely on the research cost/time to make every life form upgrade a 'good' choice. in addition i would like to see the personal upgrades (carapace etc) be more meaningful: regen works in combat, camouflage/silence unified (and a new 2nd upgrade), 2 meaningful shift upgrades

    those are just my ideas, don't take any of that as official
  • IronHorseIronHorse CDT Technical Support & QA Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Posts: 6,290Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Community Dev Team admin
    Great ideas! love em all, except for combining camo with silence. that is just a crazy thing to imagine for me.

    +1 to making hives more important but not mandatory/focus of the game!
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
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  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    Love those ideas Sewlek!

    In regards to upgrades, I really believe they should go back to costing p.res, but scale based on lifeform and possibly even power of the upgrade. (I.e carapace could cost more than camouflage, impacting the decision making process for both commanders and players alike,.would make shade starts more viable as well, on top of just generally offering a much needed non-lifeform p.res sink for players)
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Posts: 2,333Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Community Dev Team
    My problem with those ideas is, aliens that are at a certain tech level will never drop back.

    Before, when marines killed a hive it was a very hard blow to the alien team. Now it doesn't really matter.
    Ollj: "ns_napo, the first good custom map ever" ns_napo
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Sewlek's spanner to fix NS
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    I kind of like the idea of having a research for each lifeform.

    QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 30 2012, 07:13 AM) »
    camouflage/silence unified


    This on is a bad idea :

    QUOTE
    Thinking about cloak, it seems things have been done backward; if you can hear a cloaked alien it's fine, it puts the focus on audition instead of vision and shooting a cloaked skulk just from sound is fun. Same thing with silence, you can still see them. It's variation on senses.

    Cloak used to work only when walking very slowly, it's the exact contrary that needs to be done, be cloaked when you are the most noisy, that is when you run. If you stand still, uncloak.


    A skulk should never be able to take camouflage and silence at the same time.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    I honestly do not believe silence, camouflage or regen are underpowered, I think it's just a matter of carapace being too much of a nobrainer. And it definitely doesn't help that all upgrades are now free.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • Evo303Evo303 Join Date: 2012-03-22 Member: 149199Posts: 24Members
    I like this/these idea(s) - the khamm needs to be responsible for upgrading his army - i like the idea of individually researching leap, shadow step etc.

    Yes it removes some of the asymmetry that is (for some reason) so precious, but it's so much more intuitive and dynamic than "wait x minutes for leap".

    Do eeeeeet.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    It's hard to balance chambers based on their utility to the team as a whole. Individually, I can see reasons to take every upgrade (skulk silence/camouflage, lerk regen - though the options are still admittedly still quite weak) but I can't see any reason to research those upgrades because their utility is so confined. Going down the shade-route completely handicaps your higher lifeforms and regeneration is hard to justify until the second hive. The only other multi-purpose upgrade I see on the horizon is celerity so it's going to be a simple choice between those two unless something is changed about the way we research upgrades or they are balanced absolutely perfectly.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Posts: 1,775Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester
    Personally i think that once hit detection and performance is improved carapace will not be as amazing, especially on skulks. It will be more about quick kills for aliens, which silence and cloaking (even thought i hate it) both promote.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Posts: 4,598Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 30 2012, 02:13 AM) »
    i was thinking about the same idea. but instead of having groups, my idea was that you would need to upgrade each life form individually (button for skulk lvl 1 leap, skulk lvl 2 xenocide, lerk level 1 bilebomb etc.)

    the upgrades would be done at the hive, so the incentive to grab another hive (despite of having more mist and better respawn) would be to have another research running in parallel to the first hive. the upgrade would need a reasonable amount of time to complete, to make 2 hive and 3 hive play valid tactics, but also 1 hive play should be supported. depends solely on the research cost/time to make every life form upgrade a 'good' choice. in addition i would like to see the personal upgrades (carapace etc) be more meaningful: regen works in combat, camouflage/silence unified (and a new 2nd upgrade), 2 meaningful shift upgrades

    those are just my ideas, don't take any of that as official


    I feel like this makes the tech tree a bit too complicated, especially when it comes to which upgrades are lost when a hive dies. Now not only do we have different hives at different tech levels, we also have a Leap + Blink Hive and a Bile Bomb + Clogs Hive, etc... It's just too unintuitive IMO.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Zek @ Apr 30 2012, 02:08 PM) »
    I feel like this makes the tech tree a bit too complicated, especially when it comes to which upgrades are lost when a hive dies. Now not only do we have different hives at different tech levels, we also have a Leap + Blink Hive and a Bile Bomb + Clogs Hive, etc... It's just too unintuitive IMO.

    Seems intuitive to me. It's no harder than remembering that JPs come from the Proto Lab and not the AA. The only difference is that the commander gets to pick which hive/building is which, adding to the depth of strategic options available to the Kharaa.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • Angry Hillbilly 2Angry Hillbilly 2 Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Posts: 111Members
    QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 30 2012, 08:13 AM) »
    the upgrades would be done at the hive, so the incentive to grab another hive (despite of having more mist and better respawn) would be to have another research running in parallel to the first hive. the upgrade would need a reasonable amount of time to complete, to make 2 hive and 3 hive play valid tactics, but also 1 hive play should be supported.


    I defenately love this idea of making more than 1 hive more encoraged again but not vital so leaves room for diffearnt play styles :D The thing is would "evoultions" from the hive they were done at be attached in the way that if that hive were lost would the evolution be lost? So say if at the second hive an early stage research was done (for example sake) and then late game resarch was done at original hive. The early research is stuff that is required to be done before the late stuff can be done (like tech tree). If that hive were lost would it require the entire stack to be done again cus that could make a hive loss a real blow to the aliens leading back to square one.
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  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,199Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    QUOTE (Asraniel @ Apr 30 2012, 12:52 PM) »
    My problem with those ideas is, aliens that are at a certain tech level will never drop back.

    Before, when marines killed a hive it was a very hard blow to the alien team. Now it doesn't really matter.

    QUOTE (Beta 205 changelog)
    There is no more “research” on the alien side: everything is an “evolution”. So if you lose a structure that had evolved an ability, and then rebuild that structure, you need to re-evolve it.

    If anything, the blow would be much greater since you'd be re-evolving all of those abilities rather than just the one.
  • SkugganSkuggan Join Date: 2010-03-19 Member: 71017Posts: 123Members
    edited May 2012
    QUOTE (Sewlek @ Apr 30 2012, 08:13 AM) »
    i was thinking about the same idea. but instead of having groups, my idea was that you would need to upgrade each life form individually (button for skulk lvl 1 leap, skulk lvl 2 xenocide, lerk level 1 bilebomb etc.)

    the upgrades would be done at the hive, so the incentive to grab another hive (despite of having more mist and better respawn) would be to have another research running in parallel to the first hive. the upgrade would need a reasonable amount of time to complete, to make 2 hive and 3 hive play valid tactics, but also 1 hive play should be supported. depends solely on the research cost/time to make every life form upgrade a 'good' choice. in addition i would like to see the personal upgrades (carapace etc) be more meaningful: regen works in combat, camouflage/silence unified (and a new 2nd upgrade), 2 meaningful shift upgrades

    those are just my ideas, don't take any of that as official


    Please suggest this to Charlie. Great ideas.

    I also think that upgrades should matter more. This could create a res sink for the aliens if you have to pay for them again.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TheIcarusKidTheIcarusKid Join Date: 2012-03-23 Member: 149258Posts: 121Members
    edited May 2012
    Thank you Sewlek, so many of us were wanting individual researches for the abilities. The idea of really long build times could finally bring back an incentive for a second hive. Now that the second hive is only 40 res and can be power-built by a gorge, we might start to see some REALLY fast 2nd hives.

    Also, it would be interesting losing a hive and having half the upgrades disappear.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KrizzenKrizzen Join Date: 2011-12-16 Member: 138181Posts: 100Members
    edited May 2012
    Individual research would be overkill, but some loose grouping would be more manageable. Besides, with no grouping, what would you research first? Blink? Of course.

    Side note, Bile Bomb is in a league of it's own (like GLs and ARCS). The DoT is just too wicked. A few bombs and half the marine team must buy welders.

    So yeah -- I agree the core concept of this fix is nice. Return importance to hives via tech! Nerf those Kharaa!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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