Free Hydras do not fit the resource mechanics that the game is made around. For this reason alone it should never had been consitered or added. It will cause more problems than its worth, when the free hydras are finally working they will cause another issue that will end up causing another issue. It will be a never ending circle.
Good games work with their core mechanics. Quick fixes will only harm the game and I look that the current gorge as a quick fix to try to make him used more. All the Gorge need is a 3rd ability(something better than clogs). with the improved hydras(with 8-10res cost). And they are fine.
<!--quoteo(post=1932428:date=May 1 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ May 1 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the Gorge need is a 3rd ability(something better than clogs). with the improved hydras(with 8-10res cost).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unless they're going to make Hydras truly overpowered, there's no way a resource cost of 8-10 can be justified for a static defense.
<!--quoteo(post=1932428:date=May 1 2012, 07:54 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ May 1 2012, 07:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932428"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Free Hydras do not fit the resource mechanics that the game is made around. For this reason alone it should never had been consitered or added. It will cause more problems than its worth, when the free hydras are finally working they will cause another issue that will end up causing another issue. It will be a never ending circle.
Good games work with their core mechanics. Quick fixes will only harm the game and I look that the current gorge as a quick fix to try to make him used more. All the Gorge need is a 3rd ability(something better than clogs). with the improved hydras(with 8-10res cost). And they are fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ironhorse what he said^ If anything let them have there crazy aim they have now at 8-10 res.
<!--quoteo(post=1932400:date=May 1 2012, 02:51 PM:name=JuCCi-PuCCi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JuCCi-PuCCi @ May 1 2012, 02:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932400"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And suck even more... this is why it's a hot topic. The idea of free buildings sucked. Now free building that just die 1 min after you die.... wtf<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I haven't played build 206 yet but just from this statement I can tell it probably sucks.
This seems like an EGREGIOUSLY (look it up) bad change of the game.
10 was honestly too expensive for what the Hydra did before and what it does now, my biggest issue before was the cost of cysts which is now no longer a problem, even with 20 Resources I had to spend 3 or 6 on cysts to get the positions I wanted.
I know that P =/= TRes, but Whip is 10 Resources and is in my mind superior to the Hydra (Only because of it's anti-grenade properties) - So I still think that 5 is the best price for a Hydra as it is. Things like 6-9 just aren't clean amounts in my opinion..
<!--quoteo(post=1932452:date=May 1 2012, 06:32 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 1 2012, 06:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932452"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->10 was honestly too expensive for what the Hydra did before and what it does now, my biggest issue before was the cost of cysts which is now no longer a problem, even with 20 Resources I had to spend 3 or 6 on cysts to get the positions I wanted.
I know that P =/= TRes, but Whip is 10 Resources and is in my mind superior to the Hydra (Only because of it's anti-grenade properties) - So I still think that 5 is the best price for a Hydra as it is. Things like 6-9 just aren't clean amounts in my opinion..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even the earlier version of hydras did their job very well for 10 res They delayed marines effectively and forced them to fight in a vulnerable position. Of course if there were no aliens around to punish the marines who were wasting their ammo on Hydras. If marines could run passed the Hydras then they were poorly placed.
5 res for a hydra would probably be way to cheap and would make them way to effective.
So long as the Hydra count is capped, I don't think 5 PRes would be too cheap (now that starting res is reduced, or planned to anyway). Before 206, 5 PRes would've been too cheap and lead to Hydra jungles we saw previously in the days of Rockdown, which is the bane of allowing infinite Hydra creation.
<!--quoteo(post=1932417:date=May 2 2012, 09:21 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 09:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932417"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And the topic was about Hydra viability and cost. There's already enough pages in here of reasons why it doesn't need to be restricted by Pres. Anything over 3 hydras per player can quickly become overkill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I was on page 4 and i didn't see a single reasoned arguement (besides yours) why they didn't need to be restricted by pres. Infact, i hardly saw a non-troll reason at all! Now im on page 5 and i still don't see any. Infact what i do see is 90% of posts being either baffled by the change or presenting reasons for pres relevance. I love you Ironhorse and i've misunderstood you alot in the past, but this i don't see! :p Now, because you were the only person who had good reasoned arguements for the current implementation i wanted to respond to them =D.
Also, i hope i'm misunderstanding you somehow again but its frankly dishonest to say that over 3 hydra's per player in a pres based system is 'overkill' for reasons pretty obvious.
<!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 30 2012, 05:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 30 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first i thought this was a good point. But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, your right we can look at it from this perspective. You could draw parallels to the Raven in starcraft 2. It however comes down to the cost reward function. As others have pointed out, its not about them being pres free, its about them being ridiculously cost efficient. Their stopping power and 'cost' are both at mindboggling extremes! This isn't even taking into account the negative effects on marine map control and how the very high hydra dps affects the skulk bite game. In everything you do, you cannot discount the dynamics of armour vs skulk. Hydra's negate this system incredibly by essentially making everyone 2 bite even with meds just by looking around a corner. You could very well look at hydra costs as being on a scale of degree, with 10pres and x energy being high and 0pres, x energy being very low. The point is to find a balanced number that reflects the power of hydras while keeping a system of consequences relevant. Funnily enough, making hydra's cost pres does this with one stone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll tell you why. Lets go back to our scale of power vs cost. Hydra's are aimbot, do more dps, fire faster, stack up from a single gorge, and create incredibly effective hp buffers unlike spit and healspray. (I'm not even going to consider grenade launchers as a factor because its pretty standard gameplay to add whips behind). Does it make sense that they are free if they are vastly vastly superior in power to the gorge's other abilities. Wouldn't this instead obsolete the others? The behaviour this kind of system incentivises is hydra spamming to the point of prioritising energy away from healing your teammates, something not at all healthy for making team games. Don't tell me this doesn't happen - the number incentives are clear as day and i've seen this behaviour develop heavily in pubs already. Gorges are all in a world of their own now and the worst part is they have no reason not to be.
Now onto the use of 'combat engineer'. This like kicking us in the face and rubbing dirt in the wound. Gorge is clearly not being designed as a combat engineer otherwise he wouldn't have had a healspray nerf nor the removal of bilebomb. I think its incredibly hypocritical if not nonsensical (not a personal attack, but an expression of the flip flop design path) to nerf healspray and remove bilebomb under the pretense that gorges arn't 'supposed to be in combat', yet talk about hydras as being just like spit and healspray as offensive weapon abilities. I'm just not sure how one finds their way around this. Don't get me started on gorge bilebomb. Its like pissing in the wind almost, as much as i'm sure this post is probably going to effect to.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know. So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.
The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Options are good. Options that create <b>meaningful tradeoff decisions</b> making are even better. I would have thought UWE would have learned this lesson already from their recent alien kham revamp fail. This is the core of RTS and even FPS. It may fit well enough just as much as a rag fits just as well enough in a leaking pipe. You have a resource, be it time, res, energy and you make tradeoff decisions. The current system doesn't create anymore options than by sleight of hand by reducing overall pres costs so that you can still go whatever lifeform you want later. Also, what issues did hydra's costing pres cause? I'm seriously trying to brainstorm what they could be but im coming up empty so i'd love to know what they were. People are not simply asking for changes to be reverted becuase they are changes, they are asking for meaningful, balanced, tradeoff decisions.
<!--quoteo(post=1932102:date=May 1 2012, 03:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 1 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anndddd my point comes out again: Requiring Pres is not the only way to solve this issue!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but pres tied system is as far as i can tell the simplest and most intuitive method of doing so that has the most pros and the least cons to boot! Your right that there are other ways to solve spam such as with a cap and cooldown hybrid system. Your right, we could definitely invent this totally new system with 100 different custom made pulleys and levers that artificially regulated our previous 1000 custom pulley and lever system that in the end turned on the tap, or we could you know.. just turn the knob without either of the two monstrosities. Hard capping or cooldowns points to underlying design issues that arise when you divorce elements from a constrained resource system, is pretty uncreative and essentially limits player freedom. There actually was an incentive for Gorges to work with the Kham in expanding and getting res before. Cap and cooldown hybrids don't have this same incentive and i would argue are as such inferior. There are so many good reasons to tie hydra back into the resource system, and you only need to look at the past 5 pages to see them (this is true in that they actually exist).
<!--quoteo(post=1932460:date=May 1 2012, 07:06 PM:name=PsiWarp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsiWarp @ May 1 2012, 07:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So long as the Hydra count is capped, I don't think 5 PRes would be too cheap (now that starting res is reduced, or planned to anyway). Before 206, 5 PRes would've been too cheap and lead to Hydra jungles we saw previously in the days of Rockdown, which is the bane of allowing infinite Hydra creation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hard caps should be avoided as much as possible. Teams should be rewarded if they have enough resources to put down 10 hydras in a room. I also feel like that many players are underestimating this usefulness of the Hydras. Even just a single hydra supporting a skulk makes a big difference. Here are few example of their usefulness:
*The Marine might focus his view on the Hydra allowing the skulk to get the jump on him. *The Marine needs to shoot the hydra allowing the skulk to kill the marine with ease since he won't have a full clip. *The Marine tries to run passed the Hydra allowing the skulk to get a jump on him. He will also receive some damage so the skulk will require less bites to kill him. *A group of marines get delayed allowing aliens to have more time to react. *Forces marines to use high tech or group up to brake an area, this makes it easier for aliens to gain map control.
There are more points but I think the general idea is there. A single marine given enough time and ammo will be able to take down 300 Hydras alone with ease but he will still be delayed and the commander is force to drop a armory or spend pres on ammo so he is able to do it.
Even if they are such a powerful tool for the aliens you want to use them as rare as possible. The reason for this is that Hydras don't help you gain control of the map, it just allows to keep what you already have. If the marine team is playing well enough they will be able to force the alien team to drop Hydras. If the aliens do not drop Hydras in these situations the marines should be able to size the opportunity and put the alien team in even a bigger disadvantage.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932464:date=May 1 2012, 04:19 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ May 1 2012, 04:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932464"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hi ya elodea :) Bullet point time!
<ul><li>I said there were enough reasons - i didnt say who from, you are right. But i definitely wasn't trying to say anyone here has agreed with me, believe me that's been very apparent! lol. Besides, does it really matter as long as it was fact? (you said so yourself with "reasoned argument"!) :-P </li><li>I don't know about "dishonest" being the right word to use there, considering i was technically echoing something Flayra said. Just didn't ask permission to quote him. The issue became hydra numbers scaling with hives and multiple gorges obviously led to far too many hydras, perhaps i should have elaborated on that further for clarification?</li><li>Their effectiveness isn't set in stone, just so you know, but i really feel like this was a product of a) community outcry in regards to hydras not being viable enough b) keeping this in mind when switching to a "pres free" system. </li><li>healspray <i>is </i>a hp buffer?</li><li>Also to poke a hole in your healspray is obsolete and thats why it doesnt cost Pres theory: every other method in the game that "heals" from medpacks to armories to crags to regen, all cost some form of Tres or Pres. And none of those are coupled with the ability to build faster at the same time, like the welder... that costs tres and pres.</li><li>Superior abilities are not enough to justify requiring Pres, especially when there are other mechanics that can create timings and economy /tradeoffs such as cooldowns, as one example. And better abilities dont always make others obsolete in the sense you wont use them, take BB for example. Roles and proper usage prevent that scenario from happening.</li><li>Gorge <b>is </b>being designed as a combat engineer. Considering that generally entails a <u>builder </u>during combat situations as in real life definition which it is referring to / referencing - it makes perfect sense why he shouldn't be a spamming heal god / be a healer primarily. but thats imo. Now to be fair the nerf was done to limit the effectiveness /invincibility of onos seiges, as you could fully heal the onos instantly, indefinitely. </li><li><i>"So you can still go whatever lifeform you want later."</i> This can be changed without Pres if desired - but it would remove that choice of perma gorging or not.</li><li>Pres costs for gorge mandated initial starting pres to be high, skipping the early game by allowing early advanced life forms.</li><li>Also, like i said before the costs created a perma gorge more often than not.</li><li>And in relation to perma gorging i think having it as an option creates that tradeoff - increasing the cost for his lifeform can help communicate this - do you invest in base defense or do you play offensively, risking permagorge and hurting the frontlines that might have needed a skulk.</li><li>How is the gorge being the only alien class required to spend pres to use his abilities considered "intuitive"? Especially when everyone else gets cooldowns which are such a preferable / visual feedback method of gameplay?? Definitely considering your anology of pulleys and levers.. how the hell is calculating numbers to plan your next 4 moves as the builder class simpler to seeing a cooldown circle that everyone else gets?? lol</li><li>There is <b>still </b>plenty of incentives for gorge to work with comm! from weaker starting whips and harvesters, to assisting with cysts, to clogging an area for him, to helping prepare a hive area etc etc. How did removing pres create less coordination with him? Because his assisting the comm fed right back into his abilities? Doesnt it still with being able to speed up structure build times, hives and what not?</li></ul> <i>That last point was definitely the one i cant answer..</i> i'll have to think on it. But it is a VERY good point, elodea. I will be back with a solution. lol Leave it to you to be the one who came up with a "reasoned" rebuttal. :)
<!--quoteo(post=1932538:date=May 2 2012, 12:44 AM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 12:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932538"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[*]How is the gorge being the only alien class required to spend pres to use his abilities considered "intuitive"? Especially when everyone else gets cooldowns which are such a preferable / visual feedback method of gameplay?? Definitely considering your anology of pulleys and levers.. how the hell is calculating numbers to plan your next 4 moves as the builder class simpler to seeing a cooldown circle that everyone else gets?? lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's intuitive for every type of static defence to cost Resources, every type of building to cost resources (Beyond Cysts/Clogs). I assume by "cooldowns" you mean the energy system, there is still an energy drop-off to placing a Hydra even with a PRes cost the satisfaction you're looking for is still there as well as an obvious Orange/Red (Can/Can't build) image.
I think you're overcomplicating the Gorge, you certainly don't need to think four moves ahead. When you can build a Hydra you can build a Hydra it's up to you to decide where the best place to make it is.
<!--quoteo(post=1932561:date=May 2 2012, 01:41 PM:name=Panigg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Panigg @ May 2 2012, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Something that crossed my mind just now... why not move the ability to mature buildings/eggs to the gorge? Seems like a good balance trade off.
Gorges depend on the com for building things and the com depends on gorges to mature things quicker.
Not sure how this would tie in with augmentation. Could cause some imbalances there, but it's just something that came to me just now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we should add anything to the gorge that involves more of staying back in the hive holding mouse 2, no one wants to do that.
<!--quoteo(post=1932545:date=May 2 2012, 06:16 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 2 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's intuitive for every type of static defence to cost Resources, every type of building to cost resources (Beyond Cysts/Clogs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Energy is a type of resource.
<!--quoteo(post=1932545:date=May 2 2012, 06:16 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 2 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're overcomplicating the Gorge, you certainly don't need to think four moves ahead. When you can build a Hydra you can build a Hydra it's up to you to decide where the best place to make it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he's right. When Hydras start costing p.res you suddenly have to consider where the most effective position and area for them are, because once you've dropped them you've made a personal investment in that area. If they never see action you've just wasted res. If/when the Marine team decides to come along with their ARC train, you've just wasted res.
ARCs are another thing people aren't considering. Given that Gorges and Hydras are typically found around the front-lines of the action, they are also the first to be hit by the ARC train. If ARCs were not mobile, then Aliens could have a fair warning and possibly prevent Gorge's front-line Hydras from being killed; with them being mobile however no matter where you drop Hydras on the map, they are not safe.
<!--quoteo(post=1932627:date=May 2 2012, 02:00 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ May 2 2012, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932627"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Arcs tech and arcs are expensive and mid to lategame...
Creating gameplay that requires special stuff to counter effectively that doesnt require you to spend any tech resources on to get is kinda...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARCs happen regardless if Marine's don't steamroll the map or win in an early rush. It's not as if they're being made to specifically counter Gorges. Gorges on the other hand are extremely countered by ARCs. At some point in the game, unless the Gorge is building in an out of the way location, ARCs will come along and destroy everything the Gorge built.
<!--quoteo(post=1932631:date=May 2 2012, 12:22 PM:name=Unknown_Soldier)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Unknown_Soldier @ May 2 2012, 12:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932631"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->ARCs happen regardless if Marine's don't steamroll the map or win in an early rush. It's not as if they're being made to specifically counter Gorges. Gorges on the other hand are extremely countered by ARCs. At some point in the game, unless the Gorge is building in an out of the way location, ARCs will come along and destroy everything the Gorge built.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the role of the arcs, their role is to siege alien defensive postitons to allow marines to take over a area. This does not make the gorge or the Hydra any less effective. Also the aliens should never allow the arc to get close enough to siege, they should scout it early and use lerks to take them down before they reach their destination. In truth it would be a victory for the gorge to force the marines to use arcs to brake the defense, if the hydras were not in the way the marines would have just walked in and taken the area with force.
Now if it would be impossible to stop arcs then it would be a balance issue with the arcs and has no connection to the viability of Gorges and Hydras (note that gorges are not palying 1v1 versus arcs). Its improtant to think about the game as a whole and how everything connects to each other. I feel that this process was ignored when gorges were given free structures to work with since it does not fit the game at all.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1932545:date=May 2 2012, 01:16 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 2 2012, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's intuitive for <u>every </u>type of static defence to cost Resources, <u>every </u>type of building to cost resources (<u>Beyond Cysts/Clogs</u>).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I highlighted the conflicting parts to point out how even if your suggestion was implemented you'd still have exceptions to the rule : <i>by very definition violating the use of "intuitive." </i>
Unknown_soldier and Grissi answered the rest for me :)
But i do suggest you try looking at the gorge's "buildings" as being more of his "weapons" considering the energy economy and hard caps that are in place. (Since buildings like an armory or turret would not have these restrictions / setup) Considering he is trading his potential for being a fighting force on the frontlines for a builder - very very much like the engineer in TF2. (who btw has hardcaps and cooldowns as well instead of costing any res - but i know that its not a RTS - just saying it can be done well and the RTS elements are saved for the comms who play an RTS game, whereas those on the ground are supposed to be primarily playing an FPS according to the high level design)
<!--quoteo(post=1932670:date=May 2 2012, 01:16 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 01:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932670"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I highlighted the conflicting parts to point out how even if your suggestion was implemented you'd still have exceptions to the rule : <i>by very definition violating the use of "intuitive." </i>
Unknown_soldier and Grissi answered the rest for me :)
But i do suggest you try looking at the gorge's "buildings" as being more of his "weapons" considering the energy economy and hard caps that are in place. (Since buildings like an armory or turret would not have these restrictions / setup) Considering he is trading his potential for being a fighting force on the frontlines for a builder - very very much like the engineer in TF2. (who btw has hardcaps and cooldowns as well instead of costing any res - but i know that its not a RTS - just saying it can be done well and the RTS elements are saved for the comms who play an RTS game, whereas those on the ground are supposed to be primarily playing an FPS according to the high level design)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Energy Economy? I love that people think the Energy cost on Hydra's is a remotely tangible drawback or that the Gorge is massively crippled. It appears that all you can recognize are the 'negatives' of being a Gorge not the benefits you get from that trade-off.
Played Gorge all day today, didn't run into any issue managing my energy or the hard caps - Guess I'm an enigma. I did have a good laugh at the marines with their futile run-bys though..
Edit : By the way from what I can see Grissi is arguing against Unknown, maybe I'm missing something - Bringing ARC's into the argument is ridiculous.
"Are Spine Crawlers balanced against Marines" - "Yes, because Siege tanks will kill them"
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1932680:date=May 2 2012, 01:03 PM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 2 2012, 01:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Energy Economy? I love that people think the Energy cost on Hydra's is a remotely tangible drawback or that the Gorge is massively crippled.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
These things can be adjusted <b>easily</b>, and without the need for Pres... so where is the argument <i>for it</i> then?
In my opinion, this is what should happen for the Gorge:
- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one. - Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead. - Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.
Not sure on the PRes cost for Clogs, maybe they should be kept as energy and retain the limit, thoughts?
<!--quoteo(post=1932842:date=May 2 2012, 10:45 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 2 2012, 10:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The AC currently has no way to distinguish between normal and mini-cysts. Mini-cysts should just mature naturally over x minutes and then become permanent cysts. It's not as if a massive cyst rush is going to happen even if that is implemented.
Even simpler solution to the cyst problem is simply have them cost res. Their res cost could be lowered to 1-2 pres. Then there won't be any need to add useless mechanics to try to fix the problem with free buildings. Again, the game is made around the resource mechanics, going away from it just causes problems like this.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=1932842:date=May 2 2012, 05:45 PM:name=paradoxum)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (paradoxum @ May 2 2012, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In my opinion, this is what should happen for the Gorge:
- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one. - Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead. - Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.
Not sure on the PRes cost for Clogs, maybe they should be kept as energy and retain the limit, thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your proposal, much like many other here, but i dont see an argument of why? Please consider the points i have already made in this thread, too, thanks.
All this arguing about the gorge and his 3 crap buildings... really... Personally the hydra should be moved back to a pres cost, having a capped limit is kind of pointless, and having them disappear is also pointless. All the marines need to do at that point is rush the gorge and kill it, kill the rt and run away. Unless the player re-gorges and wastes another 10 res, they will die next time you come to kill the rt. Once the marines get GLs your hydras are instantly rendered useless too, so you might as well ungorge. Unless you want to be constantly re-placing them. Building free cysts is somewhat ok, but in the end just confusing. Make the gorge build full blown normal cysts, just like the alien comm. Then just make them cost a fair amount of pres, like 2 or 3 or whatever ends up being balanced. There is no reason to complicate the cyst system with mini/normal cysts, when they can both be balanced with a resource cost. Clogs i have no idea what to do with, as their usefulness is kind of hard to determine at this point.
Regarding gorge usefulness, i had some ideas that i thought would work well regarding this. You would have the aliencomm evolve the hive into crag/shift/shade, and then the gorges build those structures (crag/shift/shade), which are the chambers that grant the upgrades. You would then need 3 of each chamber to get the full effect (like NS1). This would require the alien team to have a gorge or two at the start. The alien commander would be able to build the shell,veil and spur still, and these structures would contain upgrades that would maybe provide healing on infestation, or give hivesight to marines on infestation, or even a speedboost to aliens on infestation. Also you could remove umbra from the crag, and make it a research at the shell, which would allow the commander to create a umbra cloud anywhere on the infestation for a tres cost. Basically the commander could research passive/active buffs he could use to assist his team, which would also give him more to do, and more tres sinks.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1932925:date=May 2 2012, 08:08 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ May 2 2012, 08:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932925"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->All the marines need to do at that point is rush the gorge and kill it, kill the rt and run away. Once the marines get GLs your hydras are instantly rendered useless too, so you might as well ungorge. Unless you want to be constantly re-placing them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your argument for removing free hydras here is not sound as you are using a <b>situationally dependent scenario</b> that can or cant happen and most importantly <u>would not change if hydras cost Pres.</u>
Do you think marines could not rush the gorge and kill it before free hydras? No HP or dmg changes have been made. Do you think their abilities to kill RTs is easier because of harvester health changes or because hydras are free now? Once the marines get GLs your hydras are rendered useless <b>before and after</b> hydras were made free. No Hp or dmg changes have been made.
<i>Still not seeing a valid argument for costing pres folks. </i>
Elodea was closest with saying that the gorge helped his own abilities grow when he assisted comm. I still think this occurs but at a lesser degree. (speeding up building hives and structures, as well as his overall impact on the game with defending RTs etc)
<!--quoteo(post=1932913:date=May 2 2012, 08:41 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 2 2012, 08:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see your proposal, much like many other here, but i dont see an argument of why?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Where do I even begin to explain why this is so much better than the current implementation in 207? I feel like if you can't even see it for yourself then no amount of explaination from me will enlighten you.
- I don't feel like my structures are even worth protecting when they cost 0 PRes, why risk dying staying around to heal them when I can just run back over once the marines are gone and re-drop them? I don't feel like i'm contributing anything because i'm not spending my PRes to help the team.
- Hard caps are something that UWE seems reluctant to do with Turrets and ARCs, yet they slap them on Hydras and Mini Cysts without a second thought? It's just terrible. If I build some Hydras to defend an area, and then we gain more ground and I want to protect an area further afield, I have to what, go back and waste time destroying them so I can place some more down rather than spending my accumulated PRes on some to defend the forward area? How can anyone not see that this is just *awful*? Not only that, but having to go back and destroy your own crap to place more down is boring as f<i>u</i>ck, who wants to do that when they could be playing another class and having FUN? Isn't that what the game is about, having FUN?
- Limits. Another awful idea. Previously you were rewarded for holding more Resource Towers with more PRes, which in turn you converted into more Hydras to protect your sh<i>i</i>t around the map, now what, you plop your 3 Hydras down and then do what exactly as a Gorge? You need to stay as a Gorge and stay alive for them to even remain operational, another terrible idea. As others have said, this brings more problems in with people building up an area and then being disconnected or simply leaving the game for whatever reason and all their stuff vanishing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because they would cost 10 res and they need to be *worth it*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because nobody bothers to build them unless they want to put a few Hydras on a ceiling and the Khamm can only drop them on the floor.
Comments
Good games work with their core mechanics. Quick fixes will only harm the game and I look that the current gorge as a quick fix to try to make him used more. All the Gorge need is a 3rd ability(something better than clogs). with the improved hydras(with 8-10res cost). And they are fine.
Unless they're going to make Hydras truly overpowered, there's no way a resource cost of 8-10 can be justified for a static defense.
Good games work with their core mechanics. Quick fixes will only harm the game and I look that the current gorge as a quick fix to try to make him used more. All the Gorge need is a 3rd ability(something better than clogs). with the improved hydras(with 8-10res cost). And they are fine.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ironhorse what he said^ If anything let them have there crazy aim they have now at 8-10 res.
I haven't played build 206 yet but just from this statement I can tell it probably sucks.
This seems like an EGREGIOUSLY (look it up) bad change of the game.
I know that P =/= TRes, but Whip is 10 Resources and is in my mind superior to the Hydra (Only because of it's anti-grenade properties) - So I still think that 5 is the best price for a Hydra as it is. Things like 6-9 just aren't clean amounts in my opinion..
I know that P =/= TRes, but Whip is 10 Resources and is in my mind superior to the Hydra (Only because of it's anti-grenade properties) - So I still think that 5 is the best price for a Hydra as it is. Things like 6-9 just aren't clean amounts in my opinion..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even the earlier version of hydras did their job very well for 10 res They delayed marines effectively and forced them to fight in a vulnerable position. Of course if there were no aliens around to punish the marines who were wasting their ammo on Hydras. If marines could run passed the Hydras then they were poorly placed.
5 res for a hydra would probably be way to cheap and would make them way to effective.
There's already enough pages in here of reasons why it doesn't need to be restricted by Pres.
Anything over 3 hydras per player can quickly become overkill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was on page 4 and i didn't see a single reasoned arguement (besides yours) why they didn't need to be restricted by pres. Infact, i hardly saw a non-troll reason at all! Now im on page 5 and i still don't see any. Infact what i do see is 90% of posts being either baffled by the change or presenting reasons for pres relevance. I love you Ironhorse and i've misunderstood you alot in the past, but this i don't see! :p Now, because you were the only person who had good reasoned arguements for the current implementation i wanted to respond to them =D.
Also, i hope i'm misunderstanding you somehow again but its frankly dishonest to say that over 3 hydra's per player in a pres based system is 'overkill' for reasons pretty obvious.
<!--quoteo(post=1931740:date=Apr 30 2012, 05:55 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ Apr 30 2012, 05:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1931740"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At first i thought this was a good point.
But then I realized that the gorge isn't dropping harvesters or "buildings" like a shell / armory, <b>he is using his weapons/abilities.</b> Think of how a marine does not have to remove himself from the frontlines when <i>HE </i>builds a static defensive "building"(turret)! A better analogy to draw would be a marine with only a welder tool in hand for repairing, <b>much like the position a gorge is in! </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, your right we can look at it from this perspective. You could draw parallels to the Raven in starcraft 2. It however comes down to the cost reward function. As others have pointed out, its not about them being pres free, its about them being ridiculously cost efficient. Their stopping power and 'cost' are both at mindboggling extremes! This isn't even taking into account the negative effects on marine map control and how the very high hydra dps affects the skulk bite game. In everything you do, you cannot discount the dynamics of armour vs skulk. Hydra's negate this system incredibly by essentially making everyone 2 bite even with meds just by looking around a corner. You could very well look at hydra costs as being on a scale of degree, with 10pres and x energy being high and 0pres, x energy being very low. The point is to find a balanced number that reflects the power of hydras while keeping a system of consequences relevant. Funnily enough, making hydra's cost pres does this with one stone.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He is an indirect player as the "combat engineer" a lot of the time. (encouraged by the lack of real viability with gorge spit, and his lack of maneuverability) He doesnt pay for gorge spit or healspray, so why should he pay for hydras?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll tell you why. Lets go back to our scale of power vs cost. Hydra's are aimbot, do more dps, fire faster, stack up from a single gorge, and create incredibly effective hp buffers unlike spit and healspray. (I'm not even going to consider grenade launchers as a factor because its pretty standard gameplay to add whips behind). Does it make sense that they are free if they are vastly vastly superior in power to the gorge's other abilities. Wouldn't this instead obsolete the others? The behaviour this kind of system incentivises is hydra spamming to the point of prioritising energy away from healing your teammates, something not at all healthy for making team games. Don't tell me this doesn't happen - the number incentives are clear as day and i've seen this behaviour develop heavily in pubs already. Gorges are all in a world of their own now and the worst part is they have no reason not to be.
Now onto the use of 'combat engineer'. This like kicking us in the face and rubbing dirt in the wound. Gorge is clearly not being designed as a combat engineer otherwise he wouldn't have had a healspray nerf nor the removal of bilebomb. I think its incredibly hypocritical if not nonsensical (not a personal attack, but an expression of the flip flop design path) to nerf healspray and remove bilebomb under the pretense that gorges arn't 'supposed to be in combat', yet talk about hydras as being just like spit and healspray as offensive weapon abilities. I'm just not sure how one finds their way around this. Don't get me started on gorge bilebomb. Its like pissing in the wind almost, as much as i'm sure this post is probably going to effect to.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So perma gorge is an <i>option</i>! More options are better, more often than not. So Why is it the only solution people are coming up with is "Revert the changes!" ? His abilities costing Pres created issues if you didn't know.
So those saying this doesn't follow the "core" of NS2, i'd have to disagree with you given the above and considering the asymmetric play styles. It fits well enough imo.
The only issues with the current implementation are obviously going to be addressed, as evidenced by the promises already made by the devs. I expect to see the cost of gorge to change, as well as other balance changes down the road to accommodate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Options are good. Options that create <b>meaningful tradeoff decisions</b> making are even better. I would have thought UWE would have learned this lesson already from their recent alien kham revamp fail. This is the core of RTS and even FPS. It may fit well enough just as much as a rag fits just as well enough in a leaking pipe. You have a resource, be it time, res, energy and you make tradeoff decisions. The current system doesn't create anymore options than by sleight of hand by reducing overall pres costs so that you can still go whatever lifeform you want later. Also, what issues did hydra's costing pres cause? I'm seriously trying to brainstorm what they could be but im coming up empty so i'd love to know what they were. People are not simply asking for changes to be reverted becuase they are changes, they are asking for meaningful, balanced, tradeoff decisions.
<!--quoteo(post=1932102:date=May 1 2012, 03:57 PM:name=ironhorse)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ironhorse @ May 1 2012, 03:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932102"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Anndddd my point comes out again: Requiring Pres is not the only way to solve this issue!!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but pres tied system is as far as i can tell the simplest and most intuitive method of doing so that has the most pros and the least cons to boot! Your right that there are other ways to solve spam such as with a cap and cooldown hybrid system. Your right, we could definitely invent this totally new system with 100 different custom made pulleys and levers that artificially regulated our previous 1000 custom pulley and lever system that in the end turned on the tap, or we could you know.. just turn the knob without either of the two monstrosities. Hard capping or cooldowns points to underlying design issues that arise when you divorce elements from a constrained resource system, is pretty uncreative and essentially limits player freedom.
There actually was an incentive for Gorges to work with the Kham in expanding and getting res before. Cap and cooldown hybrids don't have this same incentive and i would argue are as such inferior. There are so many good reasons to tie hydra back into the resource system, and you only need to look at the past 5 pages to see them (this is true in that they actually exist).
Hard caps should be avoided as much as possible. Teams should be rewarded if they have enough resources to put down 10 hydras in a room. I also feel like that many players are underestimating this usefulness of the Hydras. Even just a single hydra supporting a skulk makes a big difference. Here are few example of their usefulness:
*The Marine might focus his view on the Hydra allowing the skulk to get the jump on him.
*The Marine needs to shoot the hydra allowing the skulk to kill the marine with ease since he won't have a full clip.
*The Marine tries to run passed the Hydra allowing the skulk to get a jump on him. He will also receive some damage so the skulk will require less bites to kill him.
*A group of marines get delayed allowing aliens to have more time to react.
*Forces marines to use high tech or group up to brake an area, this makes it easier for aliens to gain map control.
There are more points but I think the general idea is there. A single marine given enough time and ammo will be able to take down 300 Hydras alone with ease but he will still be delayed and the commander is force to drop a armory or spend pres on ammo so he is able to do it.
Even if they are such a powerful tool for the aliens you want to use them as rare as possible. The reason for this is that Hydras don't help you gain control of the map, it just allows to keep what you already have. If the marine team is playing well enough they will be able to force the alien team to drop Hydras. If the aliens do not drop Hydras in these situations the marines should be able to size the opportunity and put the alien team in even a bigger disadvantage.
Hi ya elodea :)
Bullet point time!
<ul><li>I said there were enough reasons - i didnt say who from, you are right. But i definitely wasn't trying to say anyone here has agreed with me, believe me that's been very apparent! lol. Besides, does it really matter as long as it was fact? (you said so yourself with "reasoned argument"!) :-P </li><li>I don't know about "dishonest" being the right word to use there, considering i was technically echoing something Flayra said. Just didn't ask permission to quote him. The issue became hydra numbers scaling with hives and multiple gorges obviously led to far too many hydras, perhaps i should have elaborated on that further for clarification?</li><li>Their effectiveness isn't set in stone, just so you know, but i really feel like this was a product of a) community outcry in regards to hydras not being viable enough b) keeping this in mind when switching to a "pres free" system. </li><li>healspray <i>is </i>a hp buffer?</li><li>Also to poke a hole in your healspray is obsolete and thats why it doesnt cost Pres theory: every other method in the game that "heals" from medpacks to armories to crags to regen, all cost some form of Tres or Pres. And none of those are coupled with the ability to build faster at the same time, like the welder... that costs tres and pres.</li><li>Superior abilities are not enough to justify requiring Pres, especially when there are other mechanics that can create timings and economy /tradeoffs such as cooldowns, as one example. And better abilities dont always make others obsolete in the sense you wont use them, take BB for example. Roles and proper usage prevent that scenario from happening.</li><li>Gorge <b>is </b>being designed as a combat engineer. Considering that generally entails a <u>builder </u>during combat situations as in real life definition which it is referring to / referencing - it makes perfect sense why he shouldn't be a spamming heal god / be a healer primarily. but thats imo. Now to be fair the nerf was done to limit the effectiveness /invincibility of onos seiges, as you could fully heal the onos instantly, indefinitely. </li><li><i>"So you can still go whatever lifeform you want later."</i>
This can be changed without Pres if desired - but it would remove that choice of perma gorging or not.</li><li>Pres costs for gorge mandated initial starting pres to be high, skipping the early game by allowing early advanced life forms.</li><li>Also, like i said before the costs created a perma gorge more often than not.</li><li>And in relation to perma gorging i think having it as an option creates that tradeoff - increasing the cost for his lifeform can help communicate this - do you invest in base defense or do you play offensively, risking permagorge and hurting the frontlines that might have needed a skulk.</li><li>How is the gorge being the only alien class required to spend pres to use his abilities considered "intuitive"? Especially when everyone else gets cooldowns which are such a preferable / visual feedback method of gameplay?? Definitely considering your anology of pulleys and levers.. how the hell is calculating numbers to plan your next 4 moves as the builder class simpler to seeing a cooldown circle that everyone else gets?? lol</li><li>There is <b>still </b>plenty of incentives for gorge to work with comm! from weaker starting whips and harvesters, to assisting with cysts, to clogging an area for him, to helping prepare a hive area etc etc. How did removing pres create less coordination with him? Because his assisting the comm fed right back into his abilities? Doesnt it still with being able to speed up structure build times, hives and what not?</li></ul>
<i>That last point was definitely the one i cant answer..</i> i'll have to think on it. But it is a VERY good point, elodea. I will be back with a solution. lol Leave it to you to be the one who came up with a "reasoned" rebuttal. :)
It's intuitive for every type of static defence to cost Resources, every type of building to cost resources (Beyond Cysts/Clogs). I assume by "cooldowns" you mean the energy system, there is still an energy drop-off to placing a Hydra even with a PRes cost the satisfaction you're looking for is still there as well as an obvious Orange/Red (Can/Can't build) image.
I think you're overcomplicating the Gorge, you certainly don't need to think four moves ahead. When you can build a Hydra you can build a Hydra it's up to you to decide where the best place to make it is.
Gorges depend on the com for building things and the com depends on gorges to mature things quicker.
Not sure how this would tie in with augmentation. Could cause some imbalances there, but it's just something that came to me just now.
Gorges depend on the com for building things and the com depends on gorges to mature things quicker.
Not sure how this would tie in with augmentation. Could cause some imbalances there, but it's just something that came to me just now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think we should add anything to the gorge that involves more of staying back in the hive holding mouse 2, no one wants to do that.
Energy is a type of resource.
<!--quoteo(post=1932545:date=May 2 2012, 06:16 AM:name=Jayaris)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayaris @ May 2 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1932545"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're overcomplicating the Gorge, you certainly don't need to think four moves ahead. When you can build a Hydra you can build a Hydra it's up to you to decide where the best place to make it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, he's right. When Hydras start costing p.res you suddenly have to consider where the most effective position and area for them are, because once you've dropped them you've made a personal investment in that area. If they never see action you've just wasted res. If/when the Marine team decides to come along with their ARC train, you've just wasted res.
ARCs are another thing people aren't considering. Given that Gorges and Hydras are typically found around the front-lines of the action, they are also the first to be hit by the ARC train. If ARCs were not mobile, then Aliens could have a fair warning and possibly prevent Gorge's front-line Hydras from being killed; with them being mobile however no matter where you drop Hydras on the map, they are not safe.
Creating gameplay that requires special stuff to counter effectively that doesnt require you to spend any tech resources on to get is kinda...
Creating gameplay that requires special stuff to counter effectively that doesnt require you to spend any tech resources on to get is kinda...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ARCs happen regardless if Marine's don't steamroll the map or win in an early rush. It's not as if they're being made to specifically counter Gorges. Gorges on the other hand are extremely countered by ARCs. At some point in the game, unless the Gorge is building in an out of the way location, ARCs will come along and destroy everything the Gorge built.
This is the role of the arcs, their role is to siege alien defensive postitons to allow marines to take over a area. This does not make the gorge or the Hydra any less effective. Also the aliens should never allow the arc to get close enough to siege, they should scout it early and use lerks to take them down before they reach their destination. In truth it would be a victory for the gorge to force the marines to use arcs to brake the defense, if the hydras were not in the way the marines would have just walked in and taken the area with force.
Now if it would be impossible to stop arcs then it would be a balance issue with the arcs and has no connection to the viability of Gorges and Hydras (note that gorges are not palying 1v1 versus arcs). Its improtant to think about the game as a whole and how everything connects to each other. I feel that this process was ignored when gorges were given free structures to work with since it does not fit the game at all.
I highlighted the conflicting parts to point out how even if your suggestion was implemented you'd still have exceptions to the rule : <i>by very definition violating the use of "intuitive." </i>
Unknown_soldier and Grissi answered the rest for me :)
But i do suggest you try looking at the gorge's "buildings" as being more of his "weapons" considering the energy economy and hard caps that are in place. (Since buildings like an armory or turret would not have these restrictions / setup) Considering he is trading his potential for being a fighting force on the frontlines for a builder - very very much like the engineer in TF2.
(who btw has hardcaps and cooldowns as well instead of costing any res - but i know that its not a RTS - just saying it can be done well and the RTS elements are saved for the comms who play an RTS game, whereas those on the ground are supposed to be primarily playing an FPS according to the high level design)
Unknown_soldier and Grissi answered the rest for me :)
But i do suggest you try looking at the gorge's "buildings" as being more of his "weapons" considering the energy economy and hard caps that are in place. (Since buildings like an armory or turret would not have these restrictions / setup) Considering he is trading his potential for being a fighting force on the frontlines for a builder - very very much like the engineer in TF2.
(who btw has hardcaps and cooldowns as well instead of costing any res - but i know that its not a RTS - just saying it can be done well and the RTS elements are saved for the comms who play an RTS game, whereas those on the ground are supposed to be primarily playing an FPS according to the high level design)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Energy Economy? I love that people think the Energy cost on Hydra's is a remotely tangible drawback or that the Gorge is massively crippled. It appears that all you can recognize are the 'negatives' of being a Gorge not the benefits you get from that trade-off.
Played Gorge all day today, didn't run into any issue managing my energy or the hard caps - Guess I'm an enigma. I did have a good laugh at the marines with their futile run-bys though..
Edit : By the way from what I can see Grissi is arguing against Unknown, maybe I'm missing something - Bringing ARC's into the argument is ridiculous.
"Are Spine Crawlers balanced against Marines" - "Yes, because Siege tanks will kill them"
These things can be adjusted <b>easily</b>, and without the need for Pres... so where is the argument <i>for it</i> then?
- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one.
- Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead.
- Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.
Not sure on the PRes cost for Clogs, maybe they should be kept as energy and retain the limit, thoughts?
The AC currently has no way to distinguish between normal and mini-cysts. Mini-cysts should just mature naturally over x minutes and then become permanent cysts. It's not as if a massive cyst rush is going to happen even if that is implemented.
Again, the game is made around the resource mechanics, going away from it just causes problems like this.
Also gorges spit needs to be improved, that would go a long way to making them feel more useful and fun
- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one.
- Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead.
- Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.
Not sure on the PRes cost for Clogs, maybe they should be kept as energy and retain the limit, thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your proposal, much like many other here, but i dont see an argument of why?
Please consider the points i have already made in this thread, too, thanks.
Regarding gorge usefulness, i had some ideas that i thought would work well regarding this. You would have the aliencomm evolve the hive into crag/shift/shade, and then the gorges build those structures (crag/shift/shade), which are the chambers that grant the upgrades. You would then need 3 of each chamber to get the full effect (like NS1). This would require the alien team to have a gorge or two at the start. The alien commander would be able to build the shell,veil and spur still, and these structures would contain upgrades that would maybe provide healing on infestation, or give hivesight to marines on infestation, or even a speedboost to aliens on infestation. Also you could remove umbra from the crag, and make it a research at the shell, which would allow the commander to create a umbra cloud anywhere on the infestation for a tres cost. Basically the commander could research passive/active buffs he could use to assist his team, which would also give him more to do, and more tres sinks.
Your argument for removing free hydras here is not sound as you are using a <b>situationally dependent scenario</b> that can or cant happen and most importantly <u>would not change if hydras cost Pres.</u>
Do you think marines could not rush the gorge and kill it before free hydras? No HP or dmg changes have been made.
Do you think their abilities to kill RTs is easier because of harvester health changes or because hydras are free now?
Once the marines get GLs your hydras are rendered useless <b>before and after</b> hydras were made free. No Hp or dmg changes have been made.
<i>Still not seeing a valid argument for costing pres folks. </i>
Elodea was closest with saying that the gorge helped his own abilities grow when he assisted comm. I still think this occurs but at a lesser degree. (speeding up building hives and structures, as well as his overall impact on the game with defending RTs etc)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Structures cost PRes again and thus there is no limit and they don't die if the Gorge is dead.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where do I even begin to explain why this is so much better than the current implementation in 207? I feel like if you can't even see it for yourself then no amount of explaination from me will enlighten you.
- I don't feel like my structures are even worth protecting when they cost 0 PRes, why risk dying staying around to heal them when I can just run back over once the marines are gone and re-drop them? I don't feel like i'm contributing anything because i'm not spending my PRes to help the team.
- Hard caps are something that UWE seems reluctant to do with Turrets and ARCs, yet they slap them on Hydras and Mini Cysts without a second thought? It's just terrible. If I build some Hydras to defend an area, and then we gain more ground and I want to protect an area further afield, I have to what, go back and waste time destroying them so I can place some more down rather than spending my accumulated PRes on some to defend the forward area? How can anyone not see that this is just *awful*? Not only that, but having to go back and destroy your own crap to place more down is boring as f<i>u</i>ck, who wants to do that when they could be playing another class and having FUN? Isn't that what the game is about, having FUN?
- Limits. Another awful idea. Previously you were rewarded for holding more Resource Towers with more PRes, which in turn you converted into more Hydras to protect your sh<i>i</i>t around the map, now what, you plop your 3 Hydras down and then do what exactly as a Gorge? You need to stay as a Gorge and stay alive for them to even remain operational, another terrible idea. As others have said, this brings more problems in with people building up an area and then being disconnected or simply leaving the game for whatever reason and all their stuff vanishing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Revert Hydra nerf from latest patch back to previous one.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they would cost 10 res and they need to be *worth it*
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->- Mini Cysts should mature into Khamm Cysts if they're kept at 3 PRes, if not lower it to 2 or 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because nobody bothers to build them unless they want to put a few Hydras on a ceiling and the Khamm can only drop them on the floor.