Gorge Rush is back

DocanDocan Join Date: 2007-12-28 Member: 63284Posts: 17Members, Constellation
edited April 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
Anyone who was unfortunate enough to be stuck playing marines on [420] server last night for about 4 hours was introduce to the wrath of NS1 gorge rush REDUX. It was an unstoppable force that is 2-3x more powerful then NS1 version and is near unbeatable. In NS1 gorges were much more limited and this helped in keeping the unstoppable force of the gorge rush down. Plus the nerf to area healing helped.

Lets take a quick look at why gorges in 206 are super op in groups. In NS1 if you opted for gorge rush you had enough resource to evolve and drop 1 OC per gorge if no one dropped first resource tower which would seriously gimp your team if rush failed. Come NS2 Gorge rush REDUX, you can evolve to a gorge and drop 3 hydras which do about same damage as a single NS1 OC and actually build faster too. You don't need to worry about initial resource towers and you have a movement speed bonus with gorge slide. Not only can you evolve and drop 3 hydras, but in NS2 if you happen to lose 1-2 gorges on initial push, you can just instantly re-evolve and drop 3 more hydras. In NS1 if you died you were OOL and were unable to re-evolve. This on top of the mass group healing makes NS2 gorge rushing 2-3x more powerful in NS2 and i would dare to say unbeatable. Now the addition of infestation somewhat hinders the NS2 hydra spam, but when you have a alien hive next to marine base this becomes a non-factor with mini-crysts. Even with the proposed changes to gorges buildings dying after death i still think the current early game state of gorge is OP.

*EDIT*
Few Ideas to fix problem.
-Gorge cost 15-20 resource to evolve. This would prevent the immediate re-evolution think this is best option.
-Lower Starting resource of Aliens.
-Lower initial hydra count until hive 2 or augmentation from 3 down to 1-2
-Add resource cost to hydra's before hive 2 or augmentation. After which they would be free.
-Lower cyst spread speed of mini cysts. Maybe infestation speed could increase with number of hives.
-Lower gorge heal/adrenaline or health before hive 2/Augmentation

Well that my 2 cents on 206 gorge changes. Feel Free to flame/agree with me.

PS. Sorry to all marines who were on receiving end last night.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    I don't see how this would lose vs for example a quick shotgun rush from marines. We tried it on OAG last night, for lols, and we got beat. (Though we didn't have infestation so no hydras)

    Probably just need to increase hydra build time.
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  • DocanDocan Join Date: 2007-12-28 Member: 63284Posts: 17Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 27 2012, 02:15 PM) »
    I don't see how this would lose vs for example a quick shotgun rush from marines. We tried it on OAG last night, for lols, and we got beat. (Though we didn't have infestation so no hydras)

    Probably just need to increase hydra build time.


    If marines massed in force and tried to counter or rush we just built a hydra line and slowly move it forward. They were pretty helpless to do anything about it and within 1-2mins we had hydra in there base.
  • KaiAllardLiaoKaiAllardLiao Join Date: 2011-07-22 Member: 111800Posts: 21Members
    i was on one last night on the minshaft-ish map *forget its exact name* and commed awhile *my handle is Ice*. came in with marines boxed into operations, with both groups having maxxed out upgrades. even with shottys and GLs, between the lerks with the acidbombs and the onos we could never move far out for long, even with tons of ARCs and pings to clear out groups of buildings. it all just build once placed faster than it could be killed.

    we would move out to one area, and theyd swarm the other entrance while we were tryin to take down all the structures that were replaced in 5 seconds, or so it seemed.

    another potential fix is making the number of hydras buildable be universal among the entire team, rather than what i think was about 10 apiece with 3 hives

    i do like the idea they mentioned about buildings going away after a gorge shifts forms. then you need dedicated gorges, not just 'gorge, place, onos, repeat' cycle among the team
  • DocanDocan Join Date: 2007-12-28 Member: 63284Posts: 17Members, Constellation
    In NS1 several structures had limits per area i recall this seemed to help the building spam.
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Posts: 552Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Those were the best games ever we cloged in your comm
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,741Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    Exactly. No idea why UWE made hydra's hitscan ontop of spammability.

    Simple game theory is going to suggest that most games will simply devolve into hydra spam contains untill marines get grenadelaunchers and ARCS. gl/arc isnt even a tech tree option as much as it is a staple alongside IP's now. Hard counters.. over and over and over and over again.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • lifesfunlifesfun Join Date: 2011-02-24 Member: 83302Posts: 45Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    I think the gorges are fine u just need to slow the spread of infestation of the aliens. If there infestation is limited, the gorges are limited as well. Here are ways to add limits to infestation spread.

    1. first make it so cyst can only be built after the closes cyst is done building. Right now i can expand super fast to res nodes with out the aid of gorge. If to speed expansion of the cyst chain required more gorge aid to speed it up, or mist by the commander, then the game has more depth in strategic play.

    2. if that doesnt completely solve the issue and aliens can still expand to fast then here are some ideas: .

    increase the tres amount per cyst - this makes it so you cannot make as many cyst without sacrificing res for res nodes

    or

    make cyst cost energy - to implement a trade off scenario of: expanding or maturation of the hive

    This makes the gorge more strategic because the team has to decide which direction they want to expand, how far they want to expand, and how fast they want to expand. Sometimes its better to not overextend if losing a cyst causes more repercussions. However extending infestation can also be good because it allows for more map vision.

    -note: the point is not to limit the aliens but to make trade offs and increase the varieties of strategy. So the aliens have multiple responses to different marine strategies. A gorge rush is a valid strategy as long as it has limits such as that its an all-in strategy and requires surprise.

    If you look at starcraft at the pro level, the player has a variety of techs to choose from, they have the options of early expansions, they option of trying to get map control, they can do a balanced standard game with minor tweaks, they can even stay one base and try and tech up fast. This allows for variety. The more strategic trade offs there are, the more variety, thus the more fun and unpredictable the game becomes.

    Another example is ns1. the reason why the game was so awesome competitively and publicly was because of the strategic paths that were available. Aliens factors: timing of the hive, chamber type, what players saved for building, how fast res nodes were built, performance of the players K:D ratio(skill based movement or individual ways to play lifeforms depending on the skill of the player), taking key map positions, scouting of marine tech, pressure on spawn location, lifeform death. Every part drastically matter and each had trade off. A good game was all about timing these factors at key times and adjusting as the marines adjusted there strategy. hopefully this is not tl:dr.

    In the spirit of making this game awesome we should encourage new features and not necessarily balance the feature but balance the trade off to have that feature. Something is not simply OP because it works really good. Its only OP if the feature does not have strategic limit.

    Cheers!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • HozartisHozartis Join Date: 2009-09-01 Member: 68668Posts: 30Members
    If this is a viable "unbeatable" tactic, I'm up for any solution besides lazy design of hard capping the buildings at some artificially max limit. Increase damage of grenades, give marines hand grenades, make turrets cheaper, etc. Weaken spamming buildings (or spamming anything for that matter) by providing a hard counter to such a tactic, not by artificially hard capping the amount of structures one can build.
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    Make each hydra require its own cyst and make hydras target slower. As soon as the cyst train is broken hydras wither extremely fast; 35% for every 3 seconds. Something like that should help.
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  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Posts: 1,240Members
    QUOTE (Docan @ Apr 27 2012, 11:02 AM) »
    Anyone who was unfortunate enough to be stuck playing marines on [420] server last night for about 4 hours was introduce to the wrath of NS1 gorge rush REDUX. It was an unstoppable force that is 2-3x more powerful then NS1 version and is near unbeatable. In NS1 gorges were much more limited and this helped in keeping the unstoppable force of the gorge rush down. Plus the nerf to area healing helped.

    Lets take a quick look at why gorges in 206 are super op in groups. In NS1 if you opted for gorge rush you had enough resource to evolve and drop 1 OC per gorge if no one dropped first resource tower which would seriously gimp your team if rush failed. Come NS2 Gorge rush REDUX, you can evolve to a gorge and drop 3 hydras which do about same damage as a single NS1 OC and actually build faster too. You don't need to worry about initial resource towers and you have a movement speed bonus with gorge slide. Not only can you evolve and drop 3 hydras, but in NS2 if you happen to lose 1-2 gorges on initial push, you can just instantly re-evolve and drop 3 more hydras. In NS1 if you died you were OOL and were unable to re-evolve. This on top of the mass group healing makes NS2 gorge rushing 2-3x more powerful in NS2 and i would dare to say unbeatable. Now the addition of infestation somewhat hinders the NS2 hydra spam, but when you have a alien hive next to marine base this becomes a non-factor with mini-crysts. Even with the proposed changes to gorges buildings dying after death i still think the current early game state of gorge is OP.

    *EDIT*
    Few Ideas to fix problem.
    -Gorge cost 15-20 resource to evolve. This would prevent the immediate re-evolution think this is best option.
    -Lower Starting resource of Aliens.
    -Lower initial hydra count until hive 2 or augmentation from 3 down to 1-2
    -Add resource cost to hydra's before hive 2 or augmentation. After which they would be free.
    -Lower cyst spread speed of mini cysts. Maybe infestation speed could increase with number of hives.
    -Lower gorge heal/adrenaline or health before hive 2/Augmentation

    Well that my 2 cents on 206 gorge changes. Feel Free to flame/agree with me.

    PS. Sorry to all marines who were on receiving end last night.


    christ, let people have their fun, if an alien team can get organized enough to do a gorge rush than more power to them.
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  • EarthEarth Join Date: 2009-07-23 Member: 68243Posts: 16Members
    If you have enough black armor marines this should not be an issue.
  • Ice30Ice30 Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Posts: 54Members
    To me, having base defence buildings for free is never a good idea.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Posts: 1,135Members
    edited April 2012
    Except now the little buggers drop deadly ass hitscan hydras that are absurdly difficult to kill due to the heal. Just the other day me and another gorge held off most of the marine team on the southern exit of warehouse using nothing but hydras, sure eventually we were overrun but it tied up a big part of the marine team for a significant portion of the game! Also the fact that heal damages and can be used without switching away from the range attack is a pain!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,721Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE
    Lower initial hydra count until hive 2 or augmentation from 3 down to 1-2

    I like that suggestion the most.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    And give gorges even less to do before augmentation? Christ, they're boring enough as it is without clog to be honest. Hydras should go back to costing p.res (3 - 5) instead of being free, that'd be a much better system and put a proper trade-off on an entire team going gorge. Cysts and hydras should probably also take a little longer to build.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • Ice30Ice30 Join Date: 2011-11-26 Member: 135365Posts: 54Members
    Defence structures should never be free as i said above. If they are then theres nothing to stop a team from dropping a bunch of hydras all the time. Hydras really do hinder marine movement more than a lot of people think.

    Now that aliens don't need multiple hives to evolve higher lifeforms all they really need to do is turtle wherever the rines are attacking with their free defence structures and then start evolving onos'
  • DrummerDrummer Join Date: 2004-02-18 Member: 26654Posts: 840Members
    i spectated a couple of these matches, my favorite was the clog spam. when 2nd and 3rd hives went up, people didnt say "yay blink" or "bilebomb", they said "hive finished, more clogs!"

    ever seen a command chair FULLY enclosed by clogs? later on they made a battle ring around the cc and ip, rines were literally walled into their base
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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 2,985Members, Constellation
    edited April 2012
    Why not switch clog and hydra's?

    Clog is not really valuable to a gorge, like Blink/Leap/Stomp/Bile, so how about swapping Hydra's to being the augmented upgraded. Make clog available at start, it is a slowing mechanic without the power of Hydra, and make the Hydra the augmented upgrade, especially as now it is a resonably potent weapon being hitscan.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    Make hydras only target marines on infestation.
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  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    Every thing is fine as it is now. The only thing there is to do now is increase the cost of gorge evolving because of the free hydras and cysts.
    image
  • BlakkCooperBlakkCooper Join Date: 2007-11-24 Member: 63009Posts: 25Members
    edited April 2012
    What about making cysts more expensive if they are further away from a hive? Like when its right next to the hive (up to 10m away) its free. additional 10m its 1 res, 30m away 2 res, 40m away 3 res and so forth. that would give a permanent solution to alien expansion.
    Same way you could prevent hydra spam: Make the cost 2^n (1st hydra 1 plasma, 2nd 2, 3rd 4, 4th 8, 5th 16...)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SkymanderXSkymanderX Green Marine - The Few, The Proud, The Green. Join Date: 2011-07-29 Member: 113006Posts: 430Members
    the idea though is not to limit alien expansion, but to make losing your life-from, a big deal. Its more about how dying as a gorge early game should not result in the player evolving into a gorge again right away. It should be a thing that cripples the player for a little bit, forcing them to be a skulk.
    image
  • StopSpazzingStopSpazzing Join Date: 2005-02-26 Member: 42529Posts: 78Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Then the next build will be awesome...as they said they might integrate the idea of if you gorge and place structures, and then die, those structures will slowly start dying or be destroy automatically after a set time limit of you don't re-gorge.
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  • BlakkCooperBlakkCooper Join Date: 2007-11-24 Member: 63009Posts: 25Members
    QUOTE (SkymanderX @ Apr 28 2012, 06:39 PM) »
    the idea though is not to limit alien expansion, but to make losing your life-from, a big deal. Its more about how dying as a gorge early game should not result in the player evolving into a gorge again right away. It should be a thing that cripples the player for a little bit, forcing them to be a skulk.


    It doesn't limit it it just slows it down and prevents spam.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Posts: 278Members
    why does a gorge cost 10 res ???? hmmmmmmmm ???

    with gorge structures being free, theres no reason for a gorge to be 10 res anymore, 20 res or 25 res sounds like a good number to me.

    also, why do aliens and marines start with so much P.res ? Isnt everyone complaining how the early game is too short ? why not make both teams start with 0 P.res ?
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    Next patch it will probably be 10 p.res (was on the tracker)!
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