found a pretty nasty bug.. dunno how it happened but while commanding, i jumped out to kill a few marines then went to jump back in only to find my camera continuously scroll in one direction until i hit a different direction key then continued in that direction with no way to stop. i also couldn't drop cysts/buildings. hopping in and out of the hive didn't fix it.
I very much like the clogs, they add a lot to the game.
There are e few issues with them though: - they are invisible to the marine commander, - arcs go over them even after blocking a corridor from floor to ceiling, - I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. You can build a stack of hydras and then place clogs on them so that the hydras are inside the clogs, but still able to shoot marines. It's actually quite sneaky as they don't know where the hits are coming from, especially if you place a couple of decoy clogs.
Otherwise, they are wonderfully creative tools. I was able to construct a very quick escape route into the vents from crevice. After the arcs bug is fixed, we'll be able to delay unmanned arc rushes with them. Not bad for a first go at them.
Angry phase... :P Oh, and wave spawn?! Finally! :) Hmm. It seems very weird that the Gorge doesn't have to pay for structures. I'm looking forward to testing all this tonight.
<!--quoteo(post=1930100:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:56 AM:name=reh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reh @ Apr 26 2012, 07:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I very much like the clogs, they add a lot to the game.
There are e few issues with them though: - they are invisible to the marine commander, - arcs go over them even after blocking a corridor from floor to ceiling, - I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. You can build a stack of hydras and then place clogs on them so that the hydras are inside the clogs, but still able to shoot marines. It's actually quite sneaky as they don't know where the hits are coming from, especially if you place a couple of decoy clogs.
Otherwise, they are wonderfully creative tools. I was able to construct a very quick escape route into the vents from crevice. After the arcs bug is fixed, we'll be able to delay unmanned arc rushes with them. Not bad for a first go at them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
add -way too vulnerable to grenades to the list. the amount of time it takes to build something with the things compared to how quickly it can be destroyed is worse than how it is with power nodes.
a slight increase in the cap would be nice as well.
Mini cysts should probably be incorporated into the main cyst chain after some time of being connected to it, prevents headache if they disappear when a player swaps out of Gorge.
A player should be able to die and then go back to Gorge quickly enough so that their buildings don't die when that's implemented.
Goo blocks should be non solid but viscous to alien players, so they just get slowed down but can still pass through.
Not sure if this is how it works anyway, but build limits shouldn't scale smoothly with hive number, should be a small increase for extra hives to prevent building spam.
<!--quoteo(post=1930106:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:08 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 26 2012, 02:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->add -way too vulnerable to grenades to the list. the amount of time it takes to build something with the things compared to how quickly it can be destroyed is worse than how it is with power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. Thats a normal process in development. When you try something new, you try to make it the least game breaking / intrusive. Increasing their health is a 5 second task for a developer. But at first they have to test them out, to get a good value for the health.
Many other whiners in this thread forgetting this. And ###### about features, they haven't even tested them selves. This is a beta. Stop QQ about new features, because they interfere your competitive play. A beta is not for your matches. It is to try things out and change things.
<!--quoteo(post=1930106:date=Apr 26 2012, 01:08 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 26 2012, 01:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930106"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->add -way too vulnerable to grenades to the list. the amount of time it takes to build something with the things compared to how quickly it can be destroyed is worse than how it is with power nodes.
a slight increase in the cap would be nice as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That too, but I'd expect the clog's hp to go up a bit in future. It seems that the devs wanted to start gently on the clogs, so that they don't completely stop a marine rush.
<!--quoteo(post=1930054:date=Apr 26 2012, 08:51 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 26 2012, 08:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's funny. When you play ns2 for long enough you go through the 5 stages of grief. Koruyo and Grissi, welcome to stage 2: Anger. I myself am on stage 5: Acceptance. :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm still on the confusion stage if there is one.
But seriously, holy crap im glad i read the changelog before booting up ns2. This is one build i am honestly not going to waste time 'testing'.
<u><b>Summary of changelog</b></u> <b>Features</b> -Nonsensical alien spawn system which fills no gap, solves no problem, and screws with early game balance and flow. Afterall, total immersion is the key, so we must make sure players have continual wave like low and high points for no reason other than immersion. -Since we're going to release on console in the future we might as well simplify everything now so that the game chooses and does everything for you! We don't like our players having total control of their characters. It messes with being able to immerse yourself without thinking! -Spam and blocking people is super fun unless you call it armoury blocking which is the devil and must be avoided at all costs. -That dastardly res system is an archaic, irrelevant leftover of the RTS genre, we might as well bypass it. Besides, lets throw those gorge players a bone so they forget about us taking away their birthright.
<b>Balance</b> -Oh my gawd, must prevent aliums from being able to lose on one hive! Dying is not a penalty at all what are you talking about? It should actually be a reward! Activate the sekrat backup eggs! - Alium economy still so strong! Lets make harvestor even weaker so they die when you look at them instead of addressing relative res costs and mist. We must encourage one hive stalemates to force marines to get grenade launchers and arc spam! -Its ok, we concede spam love with lower hydra health. We always wanted you to grenade launcher rush if you didn't get the hidden memo last few builds, but now you absolutely need to! -The onos is too strong guys. Lets make him slower and tougher instead of fixing stomp! -Lets mature eggs as well for no reason other than the add immersion!
<b>Change</b> -Oh no! The marines are dodging my hydra with skillfull strafe timing! Quick make it hitscan! We must force grenade launchers at all costs!
Only one good change because it actually <b>adds</b> to interesting gameplay (besides the bug fixes ofcourse). And that is cloaked drifters. Hearing skulks on metal was already quite easy to do so yea, i havn't played but its probably easy mode to soundspot now.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
i really don't believe that wave spawn for aliens does this game justice, it would make alot more sense if marines had it for example. (because you know.. machinised spawn portals...) Aliens evolve, they dont do it as a group, they do it as individuals. Marines come in as squads, the absolute oposite of aliens.
I think wave spawning as aliens could be good. Perhaps 20 seconds is a bit long and something around 10-15 seconds would work better. I think the problem most people who are complaining have is that they are looking at the game as it is now, rather than how it will be in the future. It is still a WIP and many of these changes are moving in the right direction. Allowing the gorge to have temporary hydras that he can move around for example is something I have seen suggested several times and I think it's a good idea. Of course, this first implementation of that done in 1 week is not going to be perfect, but that doesn't mean they should completely revert things back to how they were.
<!--quoteo(post=1930120:date=Apr 26 2012, 11:32 PM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 26 2012, 11:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There is a problem with teamplay on the alien side on pubs. This has to be addressed and the spawn waves do that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your observation is correct. However, wouldn't you rather aliens co-ordinated and played like a team because they were actively choosing to do so instead of being 'shoehorned' into zerg masses which simulated team work?
<!--quoteo(post=1930110:date=Apr 26 2012, 07:14 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Apr 26 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930110"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah. Thats a normal process in development. When you try something new, you try to make it the least game breaking / intrusive. Increasing their health is a 5 second task for a developer. But at first they have to test them out, to get a good value for the health.
Many other whiners in this thread forgetting this. And ###### about features, they haven't even tested them selves. This is a beta. Stop QQ about new features, because they interfere your competitive play. A beta is not for your matches. It is to try things out and change things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It sounds like we should simply accept everything that is added to the game, it just needs little tweaking. But there are times when reality is harsh and there is a feature added that simply does not fit the game. Having free Buildings in a game that is based around economy is not a good idea. It was a diffrent story with team fortress since that game has no economy, its class based.
I understand they wanted to make the gorges more useful but free stuff is not the right way to go. Even if buildings disapere when gorges die its still something that does not fit ns. This can easily be seen if you study ns mechanics. If ns keeps going this path it will end up being a medicore game with a competitive scene that will dwine out in a year or two(seen this happen to many times with high potencial games). There have been many changes done recently that is showing that. The players are not saying these things just to rant, there is actually a good reason why some of us are trying to get this message through.
I actually love ns, it is a amazing game. Its something that both new players and veterans can play and have a good time. It also has a high competitive and spectating value. I do and I know other players really want this game to succeed and thats why they are criticizing these changes. If it falls on deaf ears then at least we tried our best. It would just such a waste of potencial if this game does not turn out to be amazing.
But hopefully they will get on the right track again, trying to be optimistic but it has been getting harder.
<!--quoteo(post=1930091:date=Apr 26 2012, 01:44 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Apr 26 2012, 01:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->found a pretty nasty bug.. dunno how it happened but while commanding, i jumped out to kill a few marines then went to jump back in only to find my camera continuously scroll in one direction until i hit a different direction key then continued in that direction with no way to stop. i also couldn't drop cysts/buildings. hopping in and out of the hive didn't fix it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Happened to me too, dropped a new cc, ran there, and camera wasnt moving with the mouse, i tried the cursor keys and it was scrolling to a single side... Oh! and next round i the mouse wasnt working. It would work in the menu, but i couldnt look around. Plus this build feels very off.... off of right track. But thats just my opinion, i play every day for an hour or 2 if i can.
A thought on what i found to be very unsatisfying: Removal of drifters. Charlie said that by removing the drifters the role of the comm would be more of a gardener. But with drifters, the "garden" felt alive! Real creatures flying through the map and morphing into structures! It felt like the hive was in control it would send drifters to expand their dominance. The hive would "plant" those structures with the drifters being the seeds. Now - the hive has absolutely no role whatsoever... It's not Khaara's queen anymore, its just a big, fat blob that lazily hangs there... like a beached whale. The "garden" feels mechanical by structures constantly being spammed by the comm. Maybe it feels more "fitting" in the early game, but later it feels just too mechanical to feel like a garden... Im not even mentioning the effects this has on the gameplay.
But again, these are merely observations of a casual player, not a newcomer, not a competitive team player. You're doing great work guys, keep it up.
I am cross-posting this from another thread complaining about the new patch.
<!--quoteo(post=1930124:date=Apr 26 2012, 08:43 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 26 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's right, the dev-team has their head up their ###### arse. I'm about done with this s.hit and might flip a coin later to decide whether to spend any more time on this game. And I do believe at this point we can definitely say a poster with an NS2PT-icon has to be scrutinized for apologism (not intended for a few level-headed guys still remaining there).
A flippin' beta, months before release, and UWE is clowning about with spawn-waves and free buildings, what a hoax.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a fallacy. You are obviously not an experienced game developer, therefore you obviously have no experience implementing spawn waves or balancing player resources in any successful game. This fallacy is being focused on and repeated, just like a political argument. It is wrong.
There is nothing special about spawn waves or changing player-spawned buildings to spawn based on a set limit as opposed to meeting the value of a number of resources gradually accrued. People are obviously mad that the game is changing, and they are unable to adapt. The game was always in beta, always susceptible to changes, and never a released product. Although you may prefer the game a certain way due to playing it for a considerable time one way during development, the purpose of development is to achieve a final product with the most possible sales; this is not just because sales represent financial success, but because continued sales also represent the success of the game. That may seem like stating the obvious, but part of achieving the aforementioned success is making changes to the game in an scientific manner that will--in the eyes of the development team--make the game more enjoyable so that more people will buy the game and recommend it to other people.
And finally, and possibly most importantly, you simply cannot regard other people with this level of vitriol over issues so trivial. It is flat-out immoral, it is propagated by the internet and contemporary Western society, and frankly it is not how anyone would address anyone else in public in most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world nations. Stop being such unbelievable, immature ######, guys. There is no need to be abusive to other human beings whom you don't even know personally over an issue like balance and feature changes to a video game. Go direct your anger towards fixing the real problems with this world.
I really like the addition of free gorge buildings. The alien side is getting more aesthetically pleasing every build, it's really fun to walk around an alien base now and just soak in the atmosphere. Great job on that aspect, guys!
I also like free buildings since it means gorge more often than not has something he can be doing, which means more active gameplay.
It however, has some obvious downsides with hydras that you've already read about in this thread, so let me throw out my solution:
Give Hydras a lot less health. Hydras are free and have a relatively small build time, so let Marines kill them easier, maybe make it take somewhere shy of a single LMG clip. You've then solved the main problem of people just gorging, building, and going combat class, since even a single marine can take down one or two of them if he encounters a bunch. Now, what will give hydras staying power as a static defense is the fact that a gorge can just pretty much instantly rebuild the damage from a skirmishing marine or two, but it'll take several gorges to keep hydras up from attack from a concentrated marine push.
There you go, if no one stays gorge, hydras will always lose a war of attrition, but with an equal marine/gorge ratio aliens can put up a fight by constantly rebuilding them and it'll be pretty even.
Other things that are problematic are Onos health and alien spawn time, but I think Oni will be a bit balanced out by EXOs whenever they get in and that alien respawn time could be fixed by adding more active spectating to waste time with or dropping it by 5 seconds abouts.
<!--quoteo(post=1930136:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:05 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ Apr 26 2012, 02:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am cross-posting this from another thread complaining about the new patch.
This is a fallacy. You are obviously not an experienced game developer, therefore you obviously have no experience implementing spawn waves or balancing player resources in any successful game. This fallacy is being focused on and repeated, just like a political argument. It is wrong.
There is nothing special about spawn waves or changing player-spawned buildings to spawn based on a set limit as opposed to meeting the value of a number of resources gradually accrued. People are obviously mad that the game is changing, and they are unable to adapt. The game was always in beta, always susceptible to changes, and never a released product. Although you may prefer the game a certain way due to playing it for a considerable time one way during development, the purpose of development is to achieve a final product with the most possible sales; Not just because sales represent financial success, but because continued sales also represent the success of the game. That may seem like stating the obvious, but part of achieving the aforementioned success is making changes to the game in an scientific manner that will--in the eyes of the development team--make the game more enjoyable so that more people will buy the game and recommend it to other people.
And finally, and possibly most importantly, you simply cannot regard other people with this level of vitriol over issues so trivial. It is flat-out immoral, it is propagated by the internet and contemporary Western society, and frankly it is not how anyone would address anyone else in public in most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world nations. Stop being such unbelievable, immature ######, guys. There is no need to be abusive to other human beings whom you don't even know personally over an issue like balance and feature changes to a video game. Go direct your anger towards fixing the real problems with this world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1930136:date=Apr 26 2012, 03:05 PM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ Apr 26 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And finally, and possibly most importantly, you simply cannot regard other people with this level of vitriol over issues so trivial. It is flat-out immoral, it is propagated by the internet and contemporary Western society, and frankly it is not how anyone would address anyone else in public in most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world nations. Stop being such unbelievable, immature ######, guys. There is no need to be abusive to other human beings whom you don't even know personally over an issue like balance and feature changes to a video game. Go direct your anger towards fixing the real problems with this world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Absolutely true. There are different ways of expressing your dissatisfaction over a certain issue. Something that a lot of people seem to lack when expressing their anger over the internet is - respect.
Hydras are now so cheap (free!) and expendable! Perhaps the health of hydras should be quite a bit lower (maybe just above the health of a skulk, 10 rounds?).
I can't immediately think of a way to display it effectively in the game, but if Hydras are to stay free, how about giving them less health the more you have?
<!--quoteo(post=1930128:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:45 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930128"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your observation is correct. However, wouldn't you rather aliens co-ordinated and played like a team because they were actively choosing to do so instead of being 'shoehorned' into zerg masses which simulated team work?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you can come up with an idea that promotes real teamplay, I'm all up to hear it. Until than we can need every tiny bit to get closer to that goal. And beside the whiners who want this change mindlessly gone completely, I think with shorter times it will be better than the system now. Even with coordinated player its better to spawn together, than to find place to meet up every death.
---
<!--quoteo(post=1930130:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like we should simply accept everything that is added to the game, it just needs little tweaking. But there are times when reality is harsh and there is a feature added that simply does not fit the game. Having free Buildings in a game that is based around economy is not a good idea. It was a diffrent story with team fortress since that game has no economy, its class based.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Nobody wants you to stop criticizing. As long as you watch your language and are constructive. But some players on this forum act like little brats stomping their foot on the ground, because they think they have some thing to say. I can't stand this immature behavior. 2. The patch is not longer than 24h out. NOBODY can say if a particular change works, or will work with little balance tweaks. And sayin how NS2 will end when released referring this new patch is simply ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1930130:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The players are not saying these things just to rant, there is actually a good reason why some of us are trying to get this message through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is no excuse on being a d...bag. Some posts in this thread have no value, no productive arguments or suggestions. Just plain rage and threatenings to the developers. As if it would change anything, that one kid threatens to not buy the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1930136:date=Apr 27 2012, 12:05 AM:name=World Construct)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (World Construct @ Apr 27 2012, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow just wow. I would suggest you not comment on player's posts without understanding the overall context of history as well as what player is not saying (which is obvious to people who have been playing the beta for a long time). This is really quite ignorant. We arn't ruffled because of they are simply 'changes'. Do you think some of us are 'bitter' by active choice?
There are genuine problems with the game, performance being one of them alongside stalemates. He's right, with release in a few months theres no rhyme or reason behind playing around with new features that don't solve but create problems. Player was being incredibly conservative and only saying that from a practical point UWE playing around with this kind of stuff doesnt make sense.
Ofcourse x,y features being deadends is pretty obvious to those of us who play and understand NS, but he didn't touch on this at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1930162:date=Apr 26 2012, 03:48 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ofcourse x,y features being deadends is pretty obvious to those of us who play and understand NS, but he didn't touch on this at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1930024:date=Apr 26 2012, 08:37 AM:name=invTempest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (invTempest @ Apr 26 2012, 08:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of all the changes for this build the only good one is removing knockdown from gore and the fact that your ears don't bleed when goring someone now.
Everything else should be reverted-
<ol type='1'><li>Scrap the clogs as they don't add anything to the game but more spam and turtle happy gorges.</li><li>Revert onos movement changes as charge is horrendous and very buggy (sensitivity gets stuck lowered after you die).</li><li>Make hydras and mini-cysts cost pres again.</li><li>Wave spawning is very very bad and needs to be reverted. Not sure how we go from 8 second spawns with emergency spawning at 4 dead aliens to 20+ second spawn times.</li><li>Drifters have no use at all right now as infestation does what a drifter does but way better.</li><li>Lerk max speed change is a bandaid and doesn't fix the underlying issue. </li><li>Smash and gore on same slot removes player control as now you can't use gore on buildings at all (gore does higher dps on buildings still).</li><li>What is the harvester weaking supposed to accomplish? Now 1 marine with 3 LMG clips can kill it. This needs to be reverted or aliens will not be able to hold their RT's.</li></ol>
I'm hoping for a hotfix on Friday to revert most of the things above. Then maybe next week you can start tackling the actual issues with the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally like the idea of free structures(needless to say they should require you to stay Gorge though). However, I think the alien economy has a very serious problem: there's literally no way to spend resources now except for going Lerk/Fade/Onos. In NS1, you could choose to play full time Gorge, or full time Skulk by temp-gorging. Now if you do that you are going to accrue a huge bank of resources and your team will yell at you. Resource surpluses or starvation have no impact on you at all, so you're hardly even tied into the RTS element.
My idea: make upgrades cost progressively more resources the more of them you take. Maybe even remove the upgrade limit entirely to allow for this. Say the first upgrade is 1, the next is 2, the next is 4, the next is 8, etc. Possibly make hives shift the cost so at hive 2 the first one is free and the second one costs 1, etc. In a sense this sort of extends the idea of "maturing" to aliens themselves as well, since every lifeform is now incentivized to stay alive for a long time to get a return out of their investment. An alien team with a really absurb res flow can create uber aliens, though maybe upgrades would need to be more expensive for higher lifeforms.
<!--quoteo(post=1930162:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:48 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 26 2012, 02:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930162"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's right, with release in a few months theres no rhyme or reason behind playing around with new features that don't solve but create problems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha, you really believe it will be released in a few months? Here is my prediction of what will happen:
Comments
There are e few issues with them though:
- they are invisible to the marine commander,
- arcs go over them even after blocking a corridor from floor to ceiling,
- I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. You can build a stack of hydras and then place clogs on them so that the hydras are inside the clogs, but still able to shoot marines. It's actually quite sneaky as they don't know where the hits are coming from, especially if you place a couple of decoy clogs.
Otherwise, they are wonderfully creative tools. I was able to construct a very quick escape route into the vents from crevice. After the arcs bug is fixed, we'll be able to delay unmanned arc rushes with them. Not bad for a first go at them.
There are e few issues with them though:
- they are invisible to the marine commander,
- arcs go over them even after blocking a corridor from floor to ceiling,
- I'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature. You can build a stack of hydras and then place clogs on them so that the hydras are inside the clogs, but still able to shoot marines. It's actually quite sneaky as they don't know where the hits are coming from, especially if you place a couple of decoy clogs.
Otherwise, they are wonderfully creative tools. I was able to construct a very quick escape route into the vents from crevice. After the arcs bug is fixed, we'll be able to delay unmanned arc rushes with them. Not bad for a first go at them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
add -way too vulnerable to grenades to the list. the amount of time it takes to build something with the things compared to how quickly it can be destroyed is worse than how it is with power nodes.
a slight increase in the cap would be nice as well.
Mini cysts should probably be incorporated into the main cyst chain after some time of being connected to it, prevents headache if they disappear when a player swaps out of Gorge.
A player should be able to die and then go back to Gorge quickly enough so that their buildings don't die when that's implemented.
Goo blocks should be non solid but viscous to alien players, so they just get slowed down but can still pass through.
Not sure if this is how it works anyway, but build limits shouldn't scale smoothly with hive number, should be a small increase for extra hives to prevent building spam.
Yeah. Thats a normal process in development. When you try something new, you try to make it the least game breaking / intrusive. Increasing their health is a 5 second task for a developer. But at first they have to test them out, to get a good value for the health.
Many other whiners in this thread forgetting this. And ###### about features, they haven't even tested them selves. This is a beta. Stop QQ about new features, because they interfere your competitive play. A beta is not for your matches. It is to try things out and change things.
a slight increase in the cap would be nice as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That too, but I'd expect the clog's hp to go up a bit in future. It seems that the devs wanted to start gently on the clogs, so that they don't completely stop a marine rush.
I'm still on the confusion stage if there is one.
But seriously, holy crap im glad i read the changelog before booting up ns2. This is one build i am honestly not going to waste time 'testing'.
<u><b>Summary of changelog</b></u>
<b>Features</b>
-Nonsensical alien spawn system which fills no gap, solves no problem, and screws with early game balance and flow. Afterall, total immersion is the key, so we must make sure players have continual wave like low and high points for no reason other than immersion.
-Since we're going to release on console in the future we might as well simplify everything now so that the game chooses and does everything for you! We don't like our players having total control of their characters. It messes with being able to immerse yourself without thinking!
-Spam and blocking people is super fun unless you call it armoury blocking which is the devil and must be avoided at all costs.
-That dastardly res system is an archaic, irrelevant leftover of the RTS genre, we might as well bypass it. Besides, lets throw those gorge players a bone so they forget about us taking away their birthright.
<b>Balance</b>
-Oh my gawd, must prevent aliums from being able to lose on one hive! Dying is not a penalty at all what are you talking about? It should actually be a reward! Activate the sekrat backup eggs!
- Alium economy still so strong! Lets make harvestor even weaker so they die when you look at them instead of addressing relative res costs and mist. We must encourage one hive stalemates to force marines to get grenade launchers and arc spam!
-Its ok, we concede spam love with lower hydra health. We always wanted you to grenade launcher rush if you didn't get the hidden memo last few builds, but now you absolutely need to!
-The onos is too strong guys. Lets make him slower and tougher instead of fixing stomp!
-Lets mature eggs as well for no reason other than the add immersion!
<b>Change</b>
-Oh no! The marines are dodging my hydra with skillfull strafe timing! Quick make it hitscan! We must force grenade launchers at all costs!
Only one good change because it actually <b>adds</b> to interesting gameplay (besides the bug fixes ofcourse). And that is cloaked drifters. Hearing skulks on metal was already quite easy to do so yea, i havn't played but its probably easy mode to soundspot now.
Aliens evolve, they dont do it as a group, they do it as individuals.
Marines come in as squads, the absolute oposite of aliens.
Your observation is correct. However, wouldn't you rather aliens co-ordinated and played like a team because they were actively choosing to do so instead of being 'shoehorned' into zerg masses which simulated team work?
Many other whiners in this thread forgetting this. And ###### about features, they haven't even tested them selves. This is a beta. Stop QQ about new features, because they interfere your competitive play. A beta is not for your matches. It is to try things out and change things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It sounds like we should simply accept everything that is added to the game, it just needs little tweaking. But there are times when reality is harsh and there is a feature added that simply does not fit the game. Having free Buildings in a game that is based around economy is not a good idea. It was a diffrent story with team fortress since that game has no economy, its class based.
I understand they wanted to make the gorges more useful but free stuff is not the right way to go. Even if buildings disapere when gorges die its still something that does not fit ns. This can easily be seen if you study ns mechanics. If ns keeps going this path it will end up being a medicore game with a competitive scene that will dwine out in a year or two(seen this happen to many times with high potencial games). There have been many changes done recently that is showing that.
The players are not saying these things just to rant, there is actually a good reason why some of us are trying to get this message through.
I actually love ns, it is a amazing game. Its something that both new players and veterans can play and have a good time. It also has a high competitive and spectating value. I do and I know other players really want this game to succeed and thats why they are criticizing these changes. If it falls on deaf ears then at least we tried our best. It would just such a waste of potencial if this game does not turn out to be amazing.
But hopefully they will get on the right track again, trying to be optimistic but it has been getting harder.
Happened to me too, dropped a new cc, ran there, and camera wasnt moving with the mouse, i tried the cursor keys and it was scrolling to a single side... Oh! and next round i the mouse wasnt working. It would work in the menu, but i couldnt look around. Plus this build feels very off.... off of right track. But thats just my opinion, i play every day for an hour or 2 if i can.
A thought on what i found to be very unsatisfying: Removal of drifters. Charlie said that by removing the drifters the role of the comm would be more of a gardener. But with drifters, the "garden" felt alive! Real creatures flying through the map and morphing into structures! It felt like the hive was in control it would send drifters to expand their dominance. The hive would "plant" those structures with the drifters being the seeds. Now - the hive has absolutely no role whatsoever... It's not Khaara's queen anymore, its just a big, fat blob that lazily hangs there... like a beached whale. The "garden" feels mechanical by structures constantly being spammed by the comm. Maybe it feels more "fitting" in the early game, but later it feels just too mechanical to feel like a garden... Im not even mentioning the effects this has on the gameplay.
But again, these are merely observations of a casual player, not a newcomer, not a competitive team player.
You're doing great work guys, keep it up.
<!--quoteo(post=1930124:date=Apr 26 2012, 08:43 AM:name=player)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (player @ Apr 26 2012, 08:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->He's right, the dev-team has their head up their ###### arse. I'm about done with this s.hit and might flip a coin later to decide whether to spend any more time on this game. And I do believe at this point we can definitely say a poster with an NS2PT-icon has to be scrutinized for apologism (not intended for a few level-headed guys still remaining there).
A flippin' beta, months before release, and UWE is clowning about with spawn-waves and free buildings, what a hoax.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a fallacy. You are obviously not an experienced game developer, therefore you obviously have no experience implementing spawn waves or balancing player resources in any successful game. This fallacy is being focused on and repeated, just like a political argument. It is wrong.
There is nothing special about spawn waves or changing player-spawned buildings to spawn based on a set limit as opposed to meeting the value of a number of resources gradually accrued. People are obviously mad that the game is changing, and they are unable to adapt. The game was always in beta, always susceptible to changes, and never a released product. Although you may prefer the game a certain way due to playing it for a considerable time one way during development, the purpose of development is to achieve a final product with the most possible sales; this is not just because sales represent financial success, but because continued sales also represent the success of the game. That may seem like stating the obvious, but part of achieving the aforementioned success is making changes to the game in an scientific manner that will--in the eyes of the development team--make the game more enjoyable so that more people will buy the game and recommend it to other people.
And finally, and possibly most importantly, you simply cannot regard other people with this level of vitriol over issues so trivial. It is flat-out immoral, it is propagated by the internet and contemporary Western society, and frankly it is not how anyone would address anyone else in public in most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world nations. Stop being such unbelievable, immature ######, guys. There is no need to be abusive to other human beings whom you don't even know personally over an issue like balance and feature changes to a video game. Go direct your anger towards fixing the real problems with this world.
I also like free buildings since it means gorge more often than not has something he can be doing, which means more active gameplay.
It however, has some obvious downsides with hydras that you've already read about in this thread, so let me throw out my solution:
Give Hydras a lot less health. Hydras are free and have a relatively small build time, so let Marines kill them easier, maybe make it take somewhere shy of a single LMG clip. You've then solved the main problem of people just gorging, building, and going combat class, since even a single marine can take down one or two of them if he encounters a bunch. Now, what will give hydras staying power as a static defense is the fact that a gorge can just pretty much instantly rebuild the damage from a skirmishing marine or two, but it'll take several gorges to keep hydras up from attack from a concentrated marine push.
There you go, if no one stays gorge, hydras will always lose a war of attrition, but with an equal marine/gorge ratio aliens can put up a fight by constantly rebuilding them and it'll be pretty even.
Other things that are problematic are Onos health and alien spawn time, but I think Oni will be a bit balanced out by EXOs whenever they get in and that alien respawn time could be fixed by adding more active spectating to waste time with or dropping it by 5 seconds abouts.
This is a fallacy. You are obviously not an experienced game developer, therefore you obviously have no experience implementing spawn waves or balancing player resources in any successful game. This fallacy is being focused on and repeated, just like a political argument. It is wrong.
There is nothing special about spawn waves or changing player-spawned buildings to spawn based on a set limit as opposed to meeting the value of a number of resources gradually accrued. People are obviously mad that the game is changing, and they are unable to adapt. The game was always in beta, always susceptible to changes, and never a released product. Although you may prefer the game a certain way due to playing it for a considerable time one way during development, the purpose of development is to achieve a final product with the most possible sales; Not just because sales represent financial success, but because continued sales also represent the success of the game. That may seem like stating the obvious, but part of achieving the aforementioned success is making changes to the game in an scientific manner that will--in the eyes of the development team--make the game more enjoyable so that more people will buy the game and recommend it to other people.
And finally, and possibly most importantly, you simply cannot regard other people with this level of vitriol over issues so trivial. It is flat-out immoral, it is propagated by the internet and contemporary Western society, and frankly it is not how anyone would address anyone else in public in most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd world nations. Stop being such unbelievable, immature ######, guys. There is no need to be abusive to other human beings whom you don't even know personally over an issue like balance and feature changes to a video game. Go direct your anger towards fixing the real problems with this world.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truer words haven't been spoken in these parts.
Absolutely true. There are different ways of expressing your dissatisfaction over a certain issue. Something that a lot of people seem to lack when expressing their anger over the internet is - respect.
If you can come up with an idea that promotes real teamplay, I'm all up to hear it. Until than we can need every tiny bit to get closer to that goal. And beside the whiners who want this change mindlessly gone completely, I think with shorter times it will be better than the system now.
Even with coordinated player its better to spawn together, than to find place to meet up every death.
---
<!--quoteo(post=1930130:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It sounds like we should simply accept everything that is added to the game, it just needs little tweaking. But there are times when reality is harsh and there is a feature added that simply does not fit the game. Having free Buildings in a game that is based around economy is not a good idea. It was a diffrent story with team fortress since that game has no economy, its class based.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Nobody wants you to stop criticizing. As long as you watch your language and are constructive. But some players on this forum act like little brats stomping their foot on the ground, because they think they have some thing to say. I can't stand this immature behavior.
2. The patch is not longer than 24h out. NOBODY can say if a particular change works, or will work with little balance tweaks. And sayin how NS2 will end when released referring this new patch is simply ridiculous.
<!--quoteo(post=1930130:date=Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM:name=Grissi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grissi @ Apr 26 2012, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1930130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The players are not saying these things just to rant, there is actually a good reason why some of us are trying to get this message through.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is no excuse on being a d...bag. Some posts in this thread have no value, no productive arguments or suggestions. Just plain rage and threatenings to the developers. As if it would change anything, that one kid threatens to not buy the game.
Wow just wow. I would suggest you not comment on player's posts without understanding the overall context of history as well as what player is not saying (which is obvious to people who have been playing the beta for a long time). This is really quite ignorant. We arn't ruffled because of they are simply 'changes'. Do you think some of us are 'bitter' by active choice?
There are genuine problems with the game, performance being one of them alongside stalemates. He's right, with release in a few months theres no rhyme or reason behind playing around with new features that don't solve but create problems. Player was being incredibly conservative and only saying that from a practical point UWE playing around with this kind of stuff doesnt make sense.
Ofcourse x,y features being deadends is pretty obvious to those of us who play and understand NS, but he didn't touch on this at all.
Not an excuse for acting like a d....bag! Period.
Everything else should be reverted-
<ol type='1'><li>Scrap the clogs as they don't add anything to the game but more spam and turtle happy gorges.</li><li>Revert onos movement changes as charge is horrendous and very buggy (sensitivity gets stuck lowered after you die).</li><li>Make hydras and mini-cysts cost pres again.</li><li>Wave spawning is very very bad and needs to be reverted. Not sure how we go from 8 second spawns with emergency spawning at 4 dead aliens to 20+ second spawn times.</li><li>Drifters have no use at all right now as infestation does what a drifter does but way better.</li><li>Lerk max speed change is a bandaid and doesn't fix the underlying issue. </li><li>Smash and gore on same slot removes player control as now you can't use gore on buildings at all (gore does higher dps on buildings still).</li><li>What is the harvester weaking supposed to accomplish? Now 1 marine with 3 LMG clips can kill it. This needs to be reverted or aliens will not be able to hold their RT's.</li></ol>
I'm hoping for a hotfix on Friday to revert most of the things above. Then maybe next week you can start tackling the actual issues with the game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1000times this!
I personally like the idea of free structures(needless to say they should require you to stay Gorge though). However, I think the alien economy has a very serious problem: there's literally no way to spend resources now except for going Lerk/Fade/Onos. In NS1, you could choose to play full time Gorge, or full time Skulk by temp-gorging. Now if you do that you are going to accrue a huge bank of resources and your team will yell at you. Resource surpluses or starvation have no impact on you at all, so you're hardly even tied into the RTS element.
My idea: make upgrades cost progressively more resources the more of them you take. Maybe even remove the upgrade limit entirely to allow for this. Say the first upgrade is 1, the next is 2, the next is 4, the next is 8, etc. Possibly make hives shift the cost so at hive 2 the first one is free and the second one costs 1, etc. In a sense this sort of extends the idea of "maturing" to aliens themselves as well, since every lifeform is now incentivized to stay alive for a long time to get a return out of their investment. An alien team with a really absurb res flow can create uber aliens, though maybe upgrades would need to be more expensive for higher lifeforms.
Balancing isnt even questionable anymore its plain crappy and shortsighted.
Ha, you really believe it will be released in a few months? Here is my prediction of what will happen:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/jAdAr.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />