Marine Spam Jumping

Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
I hate to bang on but the marine spam jumping is still a major problem for me. In build 204 it seems to lessen somewhat and I was very happy about it. But its back with a vengeance and all a player has to do is wait a split second to hit the space bar and bounce around like an idiot. It just doesn't fit well into the game at all for me. The marines should be on the ground unless they have a jet pack. A severe accuracy penalty maybe or something when jumping or a higher stamina drain after each jump for a longer period than is already implemented. Its still the only major part of the game I do not like.

Sal
«1345

Comments

  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Posts: 908Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I kind of like it. It give the marine more of a chance with 1 v 1 againt a skull. Which in this build marines needall they can get
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,766Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 26 2012, 06:42 AM) »
    I hate to bang on but the marine spam jumping is still a major problem for me. In build 204 it seems to lessen somewhat and I was very happy about it. But its back with a vengeance and all a player has to do is wait a split second to hit the space bar and bounce around like an idiot. It just doesn't fit well into the game at all for me. The marines should be on the ground unless they have a jet pack. A severe accuracy penalty maybe or something when jumping or a higher stamina drain after each jump for a longer period than is already implemented. Its still the only major part of the game I do not like.

    Sal


    It takes a good marine to make any kind of use out of jump atm given how overnerfed it is. There have been no ninja changes to jump since the last build either and i say that with the confidence of experience playing the actual game. Sorry to say, but if you still can't kill jumping marines then you were outclassed by a better player who read your predictable movements.

    I could go into heaps of detail about how overnerfed marine jumping is but i understand some people dont like marines to have movement skill and i guess thats fine. However, it is far from correct to say that jumping currently is a problem. I mean, go jump on the spot in your 'split second' timings and notice your jump height quickly become next to nothing and your speed very quickly sink into a blackhole of no return

    QUOTE
    I kind of like it. It give the marine more of a chance with 1 v 1 againt a skull. Which in this build marines needall they can get

    I agree that marines really need some kind of way to deal with the predominance of skulk leap besides having absolute godly aim. Sure aim is fun, but aim + movement is more interesting and has more depth by far. Imo I feel jump is way too overnerfed in the current builds but just my opinion.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Posts: 1,803Members
    edited April 2012
    A marine spamming jump is an easy target for a skulk. The less time you're on the ground the less momentum you have when you actually jump, so you're basically just pogoing up and down on the spot, easy to hit. Less frequent well placed and timed jumps are more beneficial.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • RanemanRaneman Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Posts: 450Members
    QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 25 2012, 01:42 PM) »
    Lets add more penalties for movement to compensate for my bad aim.

    Sal


    NS2 is slow enough as it is, we don't need more stuff like this.
    Raneman's Curated Maps
    MOST BE LOGGED ONTO STEAM COMMUNITY TO VIEW
  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Posts: 908Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Also if it is because you keep dying with 1v1 play then the other player is better then you. Unless they have a shotgun. Flamer is easy to aviod if you keep jumping behind you, chances are they will waste there ammo tring to hit you. if you are finding it hard just jump about untill they reload then take time to kill them, thats what i do if i am playing someone who has a good wepon or is clearly better then me. But then each is to there own on what methods they like.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    ^I'd like to see you try that tactic on GORGEous.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    I agree with you OP. It takes no skill at all to spam the space bar and it does make you more difficult to hit as a marine.
    In-game name: Wilson

    My Crosshair Pack: LINK
  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Posts: 908Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Apr 25 2012, 09:28 PM) »
    ^I'd like to see you try that tactic on GORGEous.

    Yeah i don't see thathappening anytime soon haha :P
  • comp_comp_ Join Date: 2011-06-27 Member: 106656Posts: 59Members
    I couldn't agree more with elodea's post. Marine movement is already way nerfed, and having some skill based movement (like airstrafing on jumps) is a lot more fun than being forced to have your feet sticked to the floor with the only option being just focusing in your aim (cause you can't even move backwards with the nerf it has...).
    Just for the record, I fully support the NS1 marine movement (with it's bhop and whatsoever) to be implemented in NS2.
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    The jump animation is the problem IMO that's why it looks so bizarre and unrealistic.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Posts: 1,024Members
    I would prefer much more mobile marine, double jump <3. Currect one feels very heavy is even worse due silly collisions.
    image
    #exertus / #team.fantasy @ Quakenet
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 25 2012, 07:54 PM) »
    It takes a good marine to make any kind of use out of jump atm given how overnerfed it is. There have been no ninja changes to jump since the last build either and i say that with the confidence of experience playing the actual game. Sorry to say, but if you still can't kill jumping marines then you were outclassed by a better player who read your predictable movements.

    I could go into heaps of detail about how overnerfed marine jumping is but i understand some people dont like marines to have movement skill and i guess thats fine. However, it is far from correct to say that jumping currently is a problem. I mean, go jump on the spot in your 'split second' timings and notice your jump height quickly become next to nothing and your speed very quickly sink into a blackhole of no return


    I agree that marines really need some kind of way to deal with the predominance of skulk leap besides having absolute godly aim. Sure aim is fun, but aim + movement is more interesting and has more depth by far. Imo I feel jump is way too overnerfed in the current builds but just my opinion.


    I have put in over 300 hours in on NS2 so far. I'm not just talking about me as a Skulk attacking a marine which ok, is not fun at times with the jumping. Trying to bite at a Marines feet as he pogos around is not fun and definitely makes it harder to land hits and all the while the Marine is pouring gunfire into you. As a Marine its way too easy to avoid being bitten as you can jump straight over the top of them, turn 180 degrees mid air and shoot as they go past. 1 v 1, marine against Skulk at Distance, the Marine should have an advantage with his ranged weapon. Close up, and especially if the Skulk ambushes as they should then the Skulk should have the advantage. But with the spam jumping that advantage is cancelled out. Using the space bar fast will like you said will have the jump go to nothing quickly. But try leaving a very short pause between jumps and its possible to jump around for as long as you want.

    I really don't see what is skill based about banging the space bar and jumping around. Anyone can do that with zero practise. Getting shots on target consistently and using team work through playing for hours is skill.

    Another annoying tactic is the way a jumping marine can block and stop a Lerk as it tries to fly overhead. Come across a few Marines in a tight corridor with little headroom and trying to fly overhead, the spam jumping starts attempting to catch the Lerk with the Marines head and causing it to stop dead for an easy cheap kill.

    @Raneman

    If you have something constructive to say in a mature way, please go ahead. Changing part of my post was childish, insulting and rude. You have your opinion as have I and you are entitled to it. But please say it in a positive way or say nothing at all.

    Sal


  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (elodea @ Apr 25 2012, 02:54 PM) »
    It takes a good marine to make any kind of use out of jump atm given how overnerfed it is. There have been no ninja changes to jump since the last build either and i say that with the confidence of experience playing the actual game. Sorry to say, but if you still can't kill jumping marines then you were outclassed by a better player who read your predictable movements.

    I could go into heaps of detail about how overnerfed marine jumping is but i understand some people dont like marines to have movement skill and i guess thats fine. However, it is far from correct to say that jumping currently is a problem. I mean, go jump on the spot in your 'split second' timings and notice your jump height quickly become next to nothing and your speed very quickly sink into a blackhole of no return

    This kinda tells it, marine jump is not really a problem. You also want to jumps as little as possible so your commander can give you instant medacks.
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,766Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Salraine_Chi @ Apr 26 2012, 09:31 AM) »
    I have put in over 300 hours in on NS2 so far.

    Fair enough, but it doesn't matter how many hours you've put in if at the end of the day you don't understand that jumping is not as effective and skilless as you make it sound. I could bring up how many many more hours i've played but i dont think it would bring much to the discussion as its not entirely relevant.

    QUOTE
    Trying to bite at a Marines feet as he pogos around is not fun and definitely makes it harder to land hits and all the while the Marine is pouring gunfire into you.

    You may not find it fun, but others may. I for one enjoy using my brain to think about how to best read my opponents movements in return while 'aiming'.

    QUOTE
    As a Marine its way too easy to avoid being bitten as you can jump straight over the top of them, turn 180 degrees mid air and shoot as they go past. 1 v 1, marine against Skulk at Distance, the Marine should have an advantage with his ranged weapon. Close up, and especially if the Skulk ambushes as they should then the Skulk should have the advantage.

    Three points.
    1) The situation you describe has nothing to do with jump spam. You read the skulks movement, use some foresight to jump over him and figure out where to aim when looking back. This is actually harder than you make it sound due to lag compensation and a dampened ability to dodge react to skulk movements. Further, experienced skulks arn't so easily fooled and beaten.
    2) Leap for the most part negates ranged advantage. From 6 minutes on, ranged advantage matters a fair ammount less. This is why i feel marines actually needs more movement options to recapture ranged advantages based on skill.
    3) Skulks do have the advantage when ambushing. Its called a free bite regardless of jump spam.

    QUOTE
    But with the spam jumping that advantage is cancelled out. Using the space bar fast will like you said will have the jump go to nothing quickly. But try leaving a very short pause between jumps and its possible to jump around for as long as you want.

    If you ever played ns2 in the builds before the movement system overhaul, you would realise that the pause between jumps is actually incredibly slow and punishing now given that jump 'spam' wasnt much of a problem back then either.

    QUOTE
    I really don't see what is skill based about banging the space bar and jumping around. Anyone can do that with zero practise. Getting shots on target consistently and using team work through playing for hours is skill.

    Sure, even a monkey could bang spacebar randomly. So what though. I could make a similar dumbed down statement about 'aiming'. Its got nothing to do with the proper use of strafe jump as a movement skill called dodging which requires precise prediction of skulk movement and aim co-ordination to complement. This is one of those things that is incredibly hard to describe to people who havn't yet developed the intuition or understanding behind strafe jump dodging and close quarters marine vs skulk. Aim and movement go hand in hand, their not mutually exclusive and both involve prediction of your target. Now prediction is the interesting part because it creates a deeper level of interaction between players reacting to one another and using the environment to their advantage instead of playing their own separate skulk move here, marine aim here game.

    QUOTE
    Another annoying tactic is the way a jumping marine can block and stop a Lerk as it tries to fly overhead. Come across a few Marines in a tight corridor with little headroom and trying to fly overhead, the spam jumping starts attempting to catch the Lerk with the Marines head and causing it to stop dead for an easy cheap kill.

    What a bad lerk is all i'll say. Annoying is subjective and i think i'd find alot of people who would say that the tactic you describe is actually skillfull and demonstrates a good understanding of their own positioning and the positioning/lines of fire of their teammates.

    *edit*
    All too often i see marines doing what i call the moonwalk which can be simulated by binding your backwards key to your fire button. Its incredibly stupid looking, blocks all your team mates from firing, seeing, or moving, and is far from interesting/engaging. I hope this is not the end goal you have in mind.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Posts: 1,803Members
    The only time I can imagine randomly jumping up and down would help is when the skulk trying to bite you is randomly throwing his mouse around with right click permanently down. In such a case, I suppose it is unfair that one skilless action outdoes another.
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    Not sure if trolling considering skulks are the most frequent abusers of the faceroll-to-spacebar maneuver. Marines are so gimped movement wise while aliens have godlike movement that gets even more rewarding as you become more adept. There's nothing wrong with the marine jump.
    In Game: Champloo
    Check out my YouTube
    Steam URL: http://steamcommunity.com/id/champloomusashi/
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @ Elodea

    Good constructive post with some valid viewpoints and well put across. The game will never please everyone and yes I have played NS2 from the alpha right at the very start so the jumping is much better than it used to be. To me it doesn't suit the game at all but I expected many to disagree. I have no problem with it in other games I play like Quake Live or UT but in a game where strategy is as important as combat it seems a little out of place as well as the fact that in my opinion it simply looks silly. I expect UW will stick to the vision they have regardless and I will keep playing whatever they decide as NS2 is my favourite game, but am just expressing my feelings on the matter as we are asked to during a beta release.

    Sal
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Everything elodea has said is right and this:

    QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Apr 26 2012, 01:31 AM) »
    Not sure if trolling considering skulks are the most frequent abusers of the faceroll-to-spacebar maneuver.

  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    Everytime someone complains about a jumping marine i point out that they're jumping as a skulk
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 157Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 26 2012, 11:51 AM) »
    Everything elodea has said is right and this:


    That is your opinion, which you are entitled to, as am I to mine. I had hoped I could post without flame and childish comments like this but I once again should have known better. A detailed answer with more substance to back up your thinking on the subject would have been better, but this makes me believe that in calling me a troll, its in fact you who are trolling Tweadle. I am a 47 year old man who plays games in his limited free time for fun. I have better things to do than join forums to cause trouble or to grief. I am passionate about NS2 and that is the only reason I post here.

    There are many aspects of the game we all disagree on and this subject is only one of them. Constructive comments only please.

    I have every faith in UW and whatever there vision for the game is.

    Sal
  • WilsonWilson Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72867Posts: 1,397Members
    edited April 2012
    Sal, I agree with you as I said before. Those guys saying this is skill based movement are delirious. There is no skill involved in mashing the space bar to avoid being bitten. It just makes you less likely to be hit by a bite because you go above the skulk bite box. IMHO you shouldn't be able to shoot while in mid air as a marine, but I know lots will disagree.

    Hopefully it will become less affective once the performance improves. Or maybe they will make the bite box a bit taller to clip the heels of jumping marines.

    Jumping to block a lerk however is a valid tactic and it's the lerks fault if he gets stuck in a situation like that.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    In-game name: Wilson

    My Crosshair Pack: LINK
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I'm not trolling anybody. I agree with elodea so I think he's right and I thought champ's comment pointing out the irony of marine-jump woes was pretty on the money when the skulks and their models are guilty of what I percieve to be far worse.

    Stay cool, buddy. I was just +1'ing some good information.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Posts: 647Members
    Of all the things that bug you about the game as it is, marines being able to jump sticks out? I understand everybody is entitled to their opinion, but the marines jumping ability is highly sluggish and clumsy. I've never once had the problem of marines being overly athletic while i'm trying to bite them (it's hardly good enough to dodge effectively with), and i'm not sure what you're suggesting that spamming the jump button actually achieves (apart from the marine bobbing slightly up and down like a munter).

    Also, the idea of forcing a marine not to be able to jump just limits him too much (if he gets stuck in a small ditch he'll be unable to get out, can't crawl into certain vents after skulks, cant even jump over a simple railing etc).
  • haprohapro Join Date: 2012-03-27 Member: 149492Posts: 102Members
    I find jumping up and down as a marine to gain a competitive edge to be stupid, but that doesn't mean I won't do it as long as it's in the game. I'd like to see a significant accuracy reduction or something while in the air.
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 26 2012, 05:52 AM) »
    There is no skill involved in mashing the space bar to avoid being bitten.

    Or mashing space bar to avoid being shot
    In Game: Champloo
    Check out my YouTube
    Steam URL: http://steamcommunity.com/id/champloomusashi/
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    people mashing space bar are the ones easy to bite

    its the ones that time the jump properly that makes it hard for me to bite.. esp when after they jump they've completely disappeared from my view

    hence its the one where they time the jumps properly that is the skill portion of it..

    agree with 'mashing space bar' as not have skill. disagree that its an issue.

  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,724Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Wilson @ Apr 26 2012, 01:52 PM) »
    Sal, I agree with you as I said before. Those guys saying this is skill based movement are delirious. There is no skill involved in mashing the space bar to avoid being bitten. It just makes you less likely to be hit by a bite because you go above the skulk bite box. IMHO you shouldn't be able to shoot while in mid air as a marine, but I know lots will disagree.

    Hopefully it will become less affective once the performance improves. Or maybe they will make the bite box a bit taller to clip the heels of jumping marines.

    Jumping to block a lerk however is a valid tactic and it's the lerks fault if he gets stuck in a situation like that.

    I actually agree with this. In NS1, marine movement was still unconstrained enough that they could use jumps and other movement tricks in a skillful way, but this is no longer the case in NS2. I hate that they've gone in that direction, but it doesn't seem like there's any chance of it being reversed.

    That being the case, they may as well go all the way and make it impossible to shoot while jumping (this is a CoD mod after all, right?). It's not like jumping is ever going to serve a legitimate purpose in combat anyway with the current movement limitations (nor is there a chance of me bothering to play the game, but that's irrelevant I guess).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 855Members, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (fanatic @ Apr 26 2012, 01:53 PM) »
    I actually agree with this. In NS1, marine movement was still unconstrained enough that they could use jumps and other movement tricks in a skillful way, but this is no longer the case in NS2. I hate that they've gone in that direction, but it doesn't seem like there's any chance of it being reversed.

    That being the case, they may as well go all the way and make it impossible to shoot while jumping (this is a CoD mod after all, right?). It's not like jumping is ever going to serve a legitimate purpose in combat anyway with the current movement limitations (nor is there a chance of me bothering to play the game, but that's irrelevant I guess).

    never give up
  • CorpseyCorpsey Join Date: 2011-07-02 Member: 107538Posts: 266Members
    I think marines just jump too "high" as it is.. if they jumped a little less high, and had some button to "climb" if ever needed.. (to jump+crouch areas, like in HL1) like press jump+jump while facing specific areas or something puts you into the animation.. then marines that spam it wont be able to evade bites as easily, but there will still be jumping to try to evade as best as possible.. because taking a large stride when someone's coming at your with a melee weapon is actually a smart move...
  • Champlo0Champlo0 Join Date: 2012-04-17 Member: 150617Posts: 465Members
    If you lower marine's jump height then they won't be able to get into certain vents because of their height. You can crouch jump, however, it is extremely ###### awkward and somewhat glitchy.
    In Game: Champloo
    Check out my YouTube
    Steam URL: http://steamcommunity.com/id/champloomusashi/
«1345
Sign In or Register to comment.