Progression

RanemanRaneman Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Posts: 450Members
The last few builds have removed any sense of progression from the game. Rines no longer have to work towards structures and unlocks, and aliens are a ###### joke. It's like I'm playing Combat for NS1 where hives and strategy didn't matter and it was just a mindless ADHD shooter with some upgrades here and there. Why would you unchain life forms from hives other then to pander to crying baby alien players who want everything given to them? Who do marines need to be able to research everything in 5 minutes? What happened to consequences and having to work to keep ahead in the technological arms race?

Please, if you want to pander to casuals who want 5 minute games with no strategy (I blame the game blowing up on reddit for this new community) then please make a new gamemode called "Super Easy Combat Shooty Shooty Fun Time Mode" and leave the actual game to other people.
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Comments

  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,197Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    edited April 2012
    I don't think marines got any changes to their tech tree?
    Unlocking lifeforms from hives is a necessary change of mechanics, and was also done in NS1, as leaving it in puts far far too much emphasis on the second hive - if it went up, aliens won, if it didn't, they lost.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • RanemanRaneman Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Posts: 450Members
    image

    Rines had all upgrade costs literally halved for some reason.
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  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    QUOTE (Align @ Apr 12 2012, 03:44 PM) »
    I don't think marines got any changes to their tech tree?

    It was made cheaper. Approx. halved for ARCs and Proto/JPs.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • PampelmusePampelmuse Join Date: 2005-04-06 Member: 47641Posts: 137Members
    raneman if you want serious criticism, you should rather point out specific problems, that just saying "everything is researched in 5 minutes" and "i blame reddit for community" etc.
    the community hasnt really changed, it just grows.
    the community does not influence uwe in such a way that every change in the game mechanics relies on it.
    comparing ns2 to ns1 combat isnt even worth answering. to be honest, i dont even know why i am answering such an immature post at all..
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Posts: 2,081Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester
    I enjoy having lifeforms unchained from the hives but I do agree the current resource system does have it's faults.

    http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117718
    I made a topic about it in the ideas and suggestions forums.
  • RanemanRaneman Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69962Posts: 450Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Align @ Apr 12 2012, 02:44 PM) »
    and was also done in NS1

    Well, in NS1, if a team saved up early game they could get an early onos off.
    In NS2, if a team saves up early game they can get 8 early onoses at once off.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • PampelmusePampelmuse Join Date: 2005-04-06 Member: 47641Posts: 137Members
    In ns1, you saved for a few weapons to rush. In ns2 you can all go jp gl once its done.
    Does it bother you that much that the mechanics in res flow are not 100% like in ns1?
  • lunsluns Join Date: 2010-12-05 Member: 75502Posts: 804Members
    edited April 2012
    its the result of all the combat ideas shoved into this game. And all you will see is patch after patch trying to adjust the numbers while the actual problem goes ignored.
    COMBAT IDEAS, REMOVE THEM, or make it less noticeable. This game is becoming other form of COD, need I say dumbed-down version of ns1?

    charlie you should of made classic, and combat mode. OR limit combat ideas.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Posts: 1,456Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited April 2012
    I just want to take a minute to point out that the max res a marine team will have to spend within 5 minutes is 150 assuming 4 RTs that are never lost. And that's quite a serious assumption.

    That's typically an extra IP (10 total) + armory (20 total) + shotguns (35) + mines (45) + obs (60) + arms lab (80) + 1 weap, 2armor upgrades (150). This is when fades are coming out.

    So here you have shotty marines with 1-2 upgrades against carapaced hive 1 fades. Advantage marine, but not insurmountable for aliens. This is expected given the marines have been "winning" up to this point by holding 4 RTs without losing anything.

    There is at least another 200 more res worth of tech available without even considering building forward armories, phase gates, turrets, etc. This is also not taking into consideration marines actually losing buildings, which will obviously greatly slow down teching.

    In an average game, you're looking at 15 minutes for marines to hit max tech. More if it's a slugfest or aliens are winning, less if marines are dominating.



    TL;DR Your opinion that there may be too many mechanics lifted from combat may be a reasonable discussion, but your "facts" are completely made up.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited April 2012
    Again, like I always say, we haven't scratched the surface yet of what players can do in this game. Even in its current state, nobody knows standard timings for phase research, shells/veils, advanced armories, 2nd/3rd hives and so on. There are barely even standard build orders for the 2 teams on the 3 official maps. How can you say the tech tree is too easily climbed when everyone is just letting their opponents do that unchecked, game after game?

    I'd rather the players enforce a certain acceptable speed of teching (by scouting/attacking creatively) than the game restrict players. The pre-b201 tech felt really clunky, like the game was dragging itself out..
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    I'll agree marine tech is researched a little too fast (though the game isnt feature complete so its hard to properly assess), and I definitely also agree alien lifeforms like the fade and the onos come out too quickly, as does second hive gameplay for aliens. That being said, I do not agree unchaining lifeforms was a bad idea, I think it was an excellent idea in fact. The biggest problem currently is that aliens only need to spend T.res on Extractors (for player resources so they can evole into fade and onos) and a second hive (which is hardly that important anymore). They need to prolong the early game, and give aliens a lot more tech to play with, i.e also force more choices on the khamm. By expanding alien T.res sinks, losing harvesters will be a lot more painful for aliens, and alien expansion (and p.res fade or onos rushes) will be able to be properly slowed by hitting the alien economy.

    Perhaps they should even consider slowing the p.res gain form 1/4 to 1/5.

    QUOTE
    In an average game, you're looking at 15 minutes for marines to hit max tech. More if it's a slugfest or aliens are winning, less if marines are dominating.


    I honestly do think this is too fast to be honest, it should take at least 20 - 30 minutes before all tech can be researched in an optimal scenario (i.e 4 harvesters not being contested) Though like I said, EXOs are coming, as are ARC, MAC and JP upgrades. So we may still hit that number. Cheaper upgrades and buildings was not a necessary step to make marines competitive, they could have just hit the p.res gain (since that mainly affects the aliens) or any other number of areas to slow down alien gameplay and give marines enough time to tech (rather than speeding up marine tech). IMO speeding marine tech is the less desirable path to making marines competitive. (Since you are not addressing the root issue, you're only addressing one of several symptoms)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Posts: 1,456Members, NS2 Map Tester
    I would definitely like to see a prolonging of early game play. Skulks vs Marines. I think the early game is currently the most skill based play.
    image
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    lvl 0 armor vs vanilla skulks is the most fun portion of the game right now.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited April 2012
    I dunno...I like the part where we kill aliens after half an hour of turret farming because they can't beat us with the flavour of the month when we use welders
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,766Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (GORGEous @ Apr 13 2012, 12:02 PM) »
    I would definitely like to see a prolonging of early game play. Skulks vs Marines. I think the early game is currently the most skill based play.

    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 13 2012, 12:30 PM) »
    lvl 0 armor vs vanilla skulks is the most fun portion of the game right now.


    +1
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • cake.cake. Join Date: 2012-01-12 Member: 140165Posts: 158Members
    edited April 2012
    I am with the poster on this one, only the presentation of the issue was a bit off. Each match really feels rushed. There isn't a feel of consequences after choosing a wrong upgrade like a few builds ago. In the current build (204) the game is decided within the first 5 minutes.
    I get that lifeforms are unchained for a number of reasons, one of them being "fun". But the past few changes have drastically increased the speed of the game, the pacing. The feeling of careful pacing by the marines, the hiding and stalking of the skulks has been lost in my opinion. These are all just my opinion and i think it's something that should really be looked at.

    QUOTE
    I'd rather the players enforce a certain acceptable speed of teching (by scouting/attacking creatively) than the game restrict players. The pre-b201 tech felt really clunky, like the game was dragging itself out..


    It did feel like it was dragging itself out, but the speed at which matches end now - is completely insane.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Posts: 610Members
    What's an "ADHD shooter"?
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE
    I get that lifeforms are unchained for a number of reasons, one of them being "fun". But the past few changes have drastically increased the speed of the game, the pacing. The feeling of careful pacing by the marines, the hiding and stalking of the skulks has been lost in my opinion. These are all just my opinion and i think it's something that should really be looked at.

    I agree, though again unchaining lifeforms had very little to do with this. Aliens could get a second hive at 3 - 5 minutes depending on the map anyway. Unchaining lifeforms was necessary to make aliens competitive even at 1-hive. What they need to do IMO is:
    - Slow down alien expansion, both in terms of hvies as in terms of extractors and map control in general
    - Make some more adjustments to marine tech costs, if alien expansion is slowed some marine tech can be increased in cost again as well
    - Provide aliens with more viable T.res choices , improve the importance of shade/crag and upgrade choices.

    Alternatively they can cut p.res gain or just change the alien starting T. and P. resources.

    I think most players don't want this combat/classic hybrid, it's the slower paced gameplay of NS 1 that made it so fantastic (and even scary at times).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Posts: 854Members, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 13 2012, 04:39 AM) »
    What's an "ADHD shooter"?

    upgraded version of the ADAD shooter that was NS1
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Posts: 2,709Members
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Apr 13 2012, 10:39 AM) »
    What's an "ADHD shooter"?

    Probably me playing Quake. Some guy asked if I had Parkinson's disease because of all the twitching and mouse shaking I do while playing that.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Posts: 892Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Since a lot of features aren't in i think it is messing the game up a lot or presumptions about the game.

    I do agree with the comments above, but let's take the arc for example. Once it is able to be upgraded i see a much weaker ARC initially due to the fact you CAN upgrade it. Without the upgrade options you couldn't have a weak ARC in the game and expect it to be used.

    Like wise the way NS1 balanced alien lifeforms was through the chambers. A hive one MC Onos was rarely seen because it was pretty much death. Even if you had a DC hive one the Onos was really lacking in utility. Once you got two hives with MC+SC or MC+DC it opened up a lot more options and beefier lifeforms. Combine that with abilities being unlocked per hive and you had a hard limit on alien tech without it killing the fun of the game. It put emphasis on Hive two without totally gimping aliens hive one.

    We are missing the third chamber and an ability shuffle on the alien side. They are still tweaking abilities (i.e. bile bomb) and trying stuff out. In Charlie's document i think he stated he didn't want magic number floating around such as life and armor increases per hive and abilities being limited per hive as well. I think both together are a mistake. I understand the intent behind them but i don't agree.

    We really need a feature complete game asap before we can start standardizing game play and fixing balance issues. The game feels wrong some how and i think to get it polished for release there needs to be less shuffling and more features completed. The last month really should be balance issues and performance gains. I worry we might see another release slip by. Though i would rather see that than an incomplete game hit shelves. Fans are VERY unforgiving and a lot of games have tried to release and add later with total failure resulting.

    FF14, Age of Conan and Global Agenda to name a couple awesome games that weren't feature complete and died out quickly.
  • extolloextollo Ping Blip Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72457Posts: 365Members
    the trick will be to balance such that avg game length is reasonable (was it a 20min target?) without an unnatural rushing of tech ups. as more and more stuff is added to the game, that goal becomes even harder.

    i guess you need to have many viable, winning, partial tech up paths - so you don't get everybody turtling forever to get that last uber-upgrade.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,186Members
    QUOTE
    In Charlie's document i think he stated he didn't want magic number floating around such as life and armor increases per hive and abilities being limited per hive as well. I think both together are a mistake. I understand the intent behind them but i don't agree.
    To be honest, less HP and armour is the best way to go about balancing onos for 1-hive and incrementally making him stronger towards lategame. UWE's issue with this is that players can't tell the difference between a 1-hive and a 3-hive onos. This is something that is easily solved, I brought this up in other threads as well, you could easily have the 1-hive onos be smaller, call it a 'young' onos. Then mature it at hive 2, and give it stomp at hive 3.

    I don't see how else you are going to address the problem, tying only abilities to hives is NOT going to fix the issue for the onos, since an onos without stomp is still very much a problem. (Unlike for example fades and lerks who become a lot more powerful with the 2nd hive). I agree balance isn't or shouldn't be top priority when the game is still feature incomplete, but there's very often EASY fixes to mend the most pressing balance problems that exist today, and they will go a long way in keeping the current beta crowd content. Performance increases will do very little when the game is simply not enjoyable because of huge balance issues.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Posts: 892Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Apr 13 2012, 05:08 PM) »
    To be honest, less HP and armour is the best way to go about balancing onos for 1-hive and incrementally making him stronger towards lategame. UWE's issue with this is that players can't tell the difference between a 1-hive and a 3-hive onos. This is something that is easily solved, I brought this up in other threads as well, you could easily have the 1-hive onos be smaller, call it a 'young' onos. Then mature it at hive 2, and give it stomp at hive 3.

    I don't see how else you are going to address the problem, tying only abilities to hives is NOT going to fix the issue for the onos, since an onos without stomp is still very much a problem. (Unlike for example fades and lerks who become a lot more powerful with the 2nd hive). I agree balance isn't or shouldn't be top priority when the game is still feature incomplete, but there's very often EASY fixes to mend the most pressing balance problems that exist today, and they will go a long way in keeping the current beta crowd content. Performance increases will do very little when the game is simply not enjoyable because of huge balance issues.


    I agree with you. I didn't mean balancing shouldn't happen at all, but some of the changes wont be needed later on with the game being feature complete. The onos scaling with hives is also what i think the fix would be, but abilities also per hive. The onos needs a ability review. His gore should NOT be a easy mode knock down for starters and stomp should be hive two.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2012
    It could be something as simple as the ability to build 1 chamber per hive that gives aliens a flat +10% hp boost per chamber. i.e. at 3 hives you can have 3 chambers up giving an onos 780 hp instead of 600. use existing chambers like the shell for an HP boost, veil for ... idk, an alien vision boost or better infestation wallhack, whatever the shift version is for more adrenaline. idk.

    QUOTE
    His gore should NOT be a easy mode knock down for starters and stomp should be hive two.

    stomp is hive 2
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Posts: 892Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    QUOTE (Wheeee @ Apr 13 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    stomp is hive 2


    Didnt know that changed, thnx. Havent touched Onos in a patch or two due to my terrible fading lol (practice practice practice.)
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (RisingSun @ Apr 13 2012, 04:56 PM) »
    Didnt know that changed, thnx. Havent touched Onos in a patch or two due to my terrible fading lol (practice practice practice.)


    i thought stomp has always been hive 2, smash has always been hive 1 (the heavy hitting anti-structure attack)
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    pres grows too quickly, faster than tech grows.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Posts: 610Members
    QUOTE (Tweadle @ Apr 13 2012, 12:01 PM) »
    upgraded version of the ADAD shooter that was NS1



    QUOTE (Bacillus @ Apr 13 2012, 03:33 PM) »
    Probably me playing Quake. Some guy asked if I had Parkinson's disease because of all the twitching and mouse shaking I do while playing that.


    I was winding up for the double whammy of socratic questioning to dispel the false argument of any game being mindless and to get on their case about insulting a serious mental condition but you guys actually made me laugh
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