Build 200 - Skulk Movement Atrocious

SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
I hope in Build 200 the skulks movement is a bug, because if that is a new style of play, wow....

It has zero air accel and when I jump it feels like I have weights attached to my feet, not impressed. Since you guys worked on the Marines Animations I am only going to assume it is a bug and not some new test on skulk movements.
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Comments

  • InfraRedInfraRed Join Date: 2003-01-20 Member: 12508Posts: 116Members, Constellation
    Yep there's definitely something changed, there's a bit more friction now but its not that bad you can still get some speed using bhop.
  • SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
    the movement they had before had some bhop to it aswell, and yes it is bad lol, real bad.

    the air accel made for better control of your character when attackin mutiple marines. Now were just sitting ducks with zero skill based movement involved.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    edited March 2012
    Air control is better. Well strafing in air I mean.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KarnajKarnaj Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146518Posts: 216Members
    Does anyone know how to enable the skulk speedmeter in Skulk_Client.lua? The function concerning it is there, but it doesn't seem to include the line to enable/disable it. Note that I don't have any lua coding experience. :p
    aka Nominous
  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Posts: 1,042Members
    edited March 2012
    Why is air strafing even in the game. Smells like a precursor to bringing back bunny hopping. A monotonous skill mechanic, yay.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    They seem to lack some speed or something, aside from that I think it's fine. Second hive makes a huge difference on skulk movement though.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • XosteanXostean Join Date: 2012-02-17 Member: 146370Posts: 187Members
    QUOTE (Kalabalana @ Mar 15 2012, 04:03 PM) »
    Why is air strafing even in the game. Smells like a precursor to bringing back bunny hopping.


    >Implying that the game isnt already about bunny hopping lol
    image
    Battle Brothers! Today the enemy is at our door step. Our perimeter has been secured in the event our enemy should be so bold and so foolish. We have placed numerous robotic factories, allowing for Multiple, simultaneous, and devastating offensive ARC deep strikes. The codex astartes has named this maneuver "OP Wall hacks"
    Black Armor Barer
  • cH40z-LordcH40z-Lord Join Date: 2009-07-26 Member: 68269Posts: 94Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The skulk feels very different right now. My first impression was "Wow", but more a confused "wow" because I had so much trouble in close combat to actually come closer to the marine before getting killed. It is also harder to kill a group of marines when they just stand a few meter next to each other. Every time I jump trying to dodge the marine it feels like the lightweight-looking skulk has a different gravity than anything else around him.

    Maybe I need to get more training in the ( again ) new skulk movement, but my current impression after a couple of matches on different maps is not that positive.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,415Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    It may have just been poor servers, but both the skulk and the gorge felt very slowed down and over heavy, however I gotta say the marines seem to move a lot smoother, and the increased sprint speed is very nice :)
  • SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
    Anybody that thinks the movement now is good, I am sorry but you never played games like quake and cs... you must be new. The movement now hinders player performance. Before you could pretty much do what you fathom'd as a player. Now your just stuck in one position when you jump in the air, making it very noob based movement wise.

    Certain players probably like this, because when they play marine, they can't aim a gun at rapid speed skulks, so this will only help them get more kills on the marine side, making the game mainstream and boring.

    If this movement stays, I am more than likely not playing the game, because I can see where it's heading in direction and it's def not where I thought UWE was heading, which was the skill based direction. I mean removal of bhopping is one thing, especially when NS1 was founded on the concept, but to make movement as crappy as what I have experienced in b200, there is no point in playing a game where getting better as a player doesn't exist.

    I am going to wait and see if this is a bug or not first though, but if not, I am packing my bags, I am not sticking around to watch another game developer company sell out to the mass waves of noobs that can't shoot a gun or play a game that involves some individual skill anymore. If I wanted that, I'd like bf3, call of duty.
  • kryptocidekryptocide Join Date: 2012-03-15 Member: 148819Posts: 6Members
    edited March 2012
    they messed up the movement as soon as i logged in and pressed W+jump i was like wtf is this sh!t... tryed jumping from the wall, saw it was fail. enemy near me, tryed jump strafing, fail. like i hope this gets hot fixed TODAY...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Posts: 3,415Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 15 2012, 10:04 PM) »
    Second hive makes a huge difference on skulk movement though.


    Haven't got to experience 2nd hive yet, been a bad day in the field for me as aliens today :(

    Do you mean that movement gets 'improved' as in plays differently at 2nd hive? or just because you get leap etc?
  • kryptocidekryptocide Join Date: 2012-03-15 Member: 148819Posts: 6Members
    QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 15 2012, 05:22 PM) »
    Anybody that thinks the movement now is good, I am sorry but you never played games like quake and cs... you must be new. The movement now hinders player performance. Before you could pretty much do what you fathom'd as a player. Now your just stuck in one position when you jump in the air, making it very noob based movement wise.

    Certain players probably like this, because when they play marine, they can't aim a gun at rapid speed skulks, so this will only help them get more kills on the marine side, making the game mainstream and boring.

    If this movement stays, I am more than likely not playing the game, because I can see where it's heading in direction and it's def not where I thought UWE was heading, which was the skill based direction. I mean removal of bhopping is one thing, especially when NS1 was founded on the concept, but to make movement as crappy as what I have experienced in b200, there is no point in playing a game where getting better as a player doesn't exist.

    I am going to wait and see if this is a bug or not first though, but if not, I am packing my bags, I am not sticking around to watch another game developer company sell out to the mass waves of noobs that can't shoot a gun or play a game that involves some individual skill anymore. If I wanted that, I'd like bf3, call of duty.

    this has been hapening to games for years. where companies cater to the noobs just to get a quik buch or two. when the real players that want to get better at a game but cant cuz it has no skill. like they took out bunny hopping a few patches ago, like wtv why you g uys want to listen to these noobs that cant aim or play for sh!t. here some advice UWE, add nething thatll take skill in the game. dont take out or change nething cuz these noobs are complaining about somethign being HARD to do. cuz mostlikely theyr bad at the game and should be ignored. so bring bak bhopping, and fix this sh!t movement this 200 patch.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 15 2012, 04:29 PM) »
    Haven't got to experience 2nd hive yet, been a bad day in the field for me as aliens today :(

    Do you mean that movement gets 'improved' as in plays differently at 2nd hive? or just because you get leap etc?


    It's not just the leap itself, the leap also seems to give you some sort of momentum now.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
  • ÒŗăNģёÒŗăNģё Join Date: 2012-02-09 Member: 144437Posts: 133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Karnaj @ Mar 15 2012, 01:47 PM) »
    Does anyone know how to enable the skulk speedmeter in Skulk_Client.lua? The function concerning it is there, but it doesn't seem to include the line to enable/disable it. Note that I don't have any lua coding experience. :p

    I believe the console command is skulk_speed
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    QUOTE (ÒŗăNģё @ Mar 15 2012, 05:42 PM) »
    I believe the console command is skulk_speed


    "debugspeed", works now for all classes
  • XosteanXostean Join Date: 2012-02-17 Member: 146370Posts: 187Members
    edited March 2012
    Who made the decision to make the skulk run like he is a 400 pound dog about to die of a heart attack?

    Making the marine sprint faster, That is a well done balance.

    However, that balance COMPLETELY shatters when the skulk can be out run by a marine not sprinting, but just running. Then on top of that you are so damn slow you cant even run away. This class is almost completely useless now. I really hope you dont plan to leave it this way.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
    Battle Brothers! Today the enemy is at our door step. Our perimeter has been secured in the event our enemy should be so bold and so foolish. We have placed numerous robotic factories, allowing for Multiple, simultaneous, and devastating offensive ARC deep strikes. The codex astartes has named this maneuver "OP Wall hacks"
    Black Armor Barer
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,767Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Xarius @ Mar 16 2012, 08:04 AM) »
    They seem to lack some speed or something, aside from that I think it's fine. Second hive makes a huge difference on skulk movement though.

    QUOTE (Soul_Rider @ Mar 16 2012, 08:20 AM) »
    It may have just been poor servers, but both the skulk and the gorge felt very slowed down and over heavy, however I gotta say the marines seem to move a lot smoother, and the increased sprint speed is very nice :)

    I think its interesting to note that the skulk is now at the same base speed as it was pre 199 (7 speed). I think we were all spoilt last build with 9.5 speed and crazy burst up to 20. Marine dodging ability has actually been the true nerf this build as far as i can tell with slower acceleration or something making slow on land much harder to deal with.
    Also, its very easy to lose all your skulk speed when you hit a small bump in geometry? Like say a half inch bevel or some really small bump. I would also suspect this is why jumping up the prop stairs is really slow..


    Its not perfect and i'm sure we'll be seeing iterations of it, but its far from atrocious and i think its a bit too early to be saying so. I can't exactly figure out how to make the best used of wall jump and to what speeds you can get etc. so i can't comment on the skill based portion of skulk movement. The level of air control we had last build was not a true skill based movement system. It was either crazy madman zigzagging or the ability to correct your mistakes (which isnt very skillfull is it).

    Its early days to comment, but if anything, leap feels very good :).

    QUOTE (Kryptocide)

    QUOTE (Slithers)

    As an aside, nothing annoys me more than people who thought they were good because they were skilled but actually were only good because they were buffed. And then when it is tuned to a less ridiculous level they realise they actually have no map or situational awareness and cry foul, accusing the game developer of listening to the 'noobs'.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • SideOfBeefSideOfBeef Join Date: 2012-03-04 Member: 148064Posts: 41Members
    QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 15 2012, 04:22 PM) »
    Anybody that thinks the movement now is good, I am sorry but you never played games like quake and cs... you must be new. The movement now hinders player performance. Before you could pretty much do what you fathom'd as a player. Now your just stuck in one position when you jump in the air, making it very noob based movement wise.

    Certain players probably like this, because when they play marine, they can't aim a gun at rapid speed skulks, so this will only help them get more kills on the marine side, making the game mainstream and boring.

    If this movement stays, I am more than likely not playing the game, because I can see where it's heading in direction and it's def not where I thought UWE was heading, which was the skill based direction. I mean removal of bhopping is one thing, especially when NS1 was founded on the concept, but to make movement as crappy as what I have experienced in b200, there is no point in playing a game where getting better as a player doesn't exist.

    I am going to wait and see if this is a bug or not first though, but if not, I am packing my bags, I am not sticking around to watch another game developer company sell out to the mass waves of noobs that can't shoot a gun or play a game that involves some individual skill anymore. If I wanted that, I'd like bf3, call of duty.


    So wait, instead of hitting the spacebar and praying to the network connection gods, you have to actually plan a safe movement path to and around your target? And marines have to actually think about movement obstruction and their own sight lines instead of just hopping on the spot? This is a travesty.

    Frankly I couldn't be happier to see the game moving in a strategic direction, where players have to actually think about their environment before and while engaging. Twitch reaction takes little thought and suffers from randomization through lag, and if you want that you can get more of it at higher quality in other games. Natural Selection is a strategy game, and that's what I want it to be.
  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Posts: 656Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    The skulk is pretty much back to the b198 mechanic of moving. In b199 the skulk was moving 15% faster than intended normally (at speed 8).
    Also now animations don't make marines lose 5 in 10 bullets on skulks anymore, so rifles are actually fearsome now. :)

    There's a new skill based movement for the skulk in right now. I will post a video explaining it later (maybe). Your base speed is 7,2 but you can get up to 14 simply by jumping from the walls. Leap combines with that without restriction, so that gets you up to 20 easily. But that may be capped in the upcoming patches.

    Also you actually lose less speed when you hit the ground than in b199, but you can't gain it much anymore by just turning in the air, which is a boring mechanic.
  • Salraine_ChiSalraine_Chi Join Date: 2011-07-03 Member: 107669Posts: 158Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2012
    Had some great games on 199 during the past week and just had one in 200 and its like a different game. But not for the better.

    As much as I hate bhopping, the increase in Skulk movement felt good and was fun to play. They now feel slow and heavy as hell compared to 199 and its very hard to go one on one against a Marine and win now and against more than one is suicide. A middle point between 199 and 200 would be good but with improved wall jumping.

    And why speed up the marine movement even more? They have guns, flamethrowers and all the rest and the last thing they need is even more speed. Hitting sprint now and I feel like an Olympic athlete and I swear I outran Skulks on several occasions and surely that cant be right?! So...even more marine jumping spam/circle straffing which makes playing as Skulk even harder. Hitting the forward key and one of the staffing keys now and marines can just run in a circle around an Alien. marines should not be able to fire while sprinting but they can, or when jumping. The deep tactical game I was hoping for seems to be dying.

    It just feels wrong to me. The marines should be slow and cumbersome and be forced to move in groups. The Aliens should be agile and use ambushes and guerilla tactics to get in close to do damage but the game seems to be going in the exact opposite direction.

    But, its still a while till release and I just live in hope that UW will change and tweak things even more before release. Maybe the speed increase is just a temp balance solution till Exo suits come in.

    Performance has dropped again for me. Attacking a couple of enemies in build 200 and im lucky to get 2 fps and I feel like I'm moving in treacle.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Posts: 2,331Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold
    QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 15 2012, 06:11 PM) »
    I think its interesting to note that the skulk is now at the same base speed as it was pre 199 (7 speed). I think we were all spoilt last build with 9.5 speed and crazy burst up to 20.


    the base speed of 8 on ground (and 9.5 with strafe jumps) was unintentional. and as you wrote, it was always 7 for the skulk on ground pre 199, and before 195 it was always limited with 7 even in air (13 with leaping for a very short duration). i should maybe explain briefly how the movement works, and which potential it has:

    from build 195 until build 198 you could store up some part of your impact energy and use it in your next timed jump. that means only the more speed you lose when you land somewhere (wall, ground or ceiling) the greater the jump will be when you time it right. this behavior has now returned and you can utlize it to get quite high speed values

    in build 199 the general speed cap was removed. that means you can combine leap and timed wall jumps to build up high momentum. in build 199 this was a flat number. you jumped -> some impulse was added and you became faster, which could stack up to insane numbers like 20 meters per second. in this build it's more about timing, and pressing in the right moment the jump button (like it was in build 195 - 198), otherwise you get no real benefit.

    you can build up speed through momentum and timed wall jumps and without speed cap now, that's something worth to execise. i have to say even i who knows all numbers and calculations can't perform it perfectly, but a few of our PTs can with excellent timing and it feels much more difficult to compete with a skulk who masters that

  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Slithers
    And the Skulk rage goes on! Remember how big the rage was with the changes and bugs in 199? But after sometime we learned how to use the new skulk and he was deadly again.
    Skulk speed is still increased compared to pre 199.

    And screaming out after 2 or so hours the patch was released is just weak. We hadn't even the time to really learn the new mechanics.
    And a post that I will quit if the movement won't get changed (4 times in a row now) just results you landing on the ignore list (yeah that nice little function in you UCP), because it's just pure rage/hate and doesn't really help anybody.

    And never compare a game that is in development with games that are over 14y old!
    image
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Posts: 1,073Members
    ...not to mention celerity.
  • SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
    edited March 2012
    Why did you change the movement from the skulk to another boring build where you have no control over him?

    Didn't you guys say you were final with him in a previous post on people crying for the older version? now all of a sudden he is changed again.

    I can't understand how people enjoy jumping in a straight line, not to mention wall hopping has never really worked correctly and is pretty much useless.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
    QUOTE (elodea @ Mar 15 2012, 05:11 PM) »
    I think its interesting to note that the skulk is now at the same base speed as it was pre 199 (7 speed). I think we were all spoilt last build with 9.5 speed and crazy burst up to 20. Marine dodging ability has actually been the true nerf this build as far as i can tell with slower acceleration or something making slow on land much harder to deal with.
    Also, its very easy to lose all your skulk speed when you hit a small bump in geometry? Like say a half inch bevel or some really small bump. I would also suspect this is why jumping up the prop stairs is really slow..


    Its not perfect and i'm sure we'll be seeing iterations of it, but its far from atrocious and i think its a bit too early to be saying so. I can't exactly figure out how to make the best used of wall jump and to what speeds you can get etc. so i can't comment on the skill based portion of skulk movement. The level of air control we had last build was not a true skill based movement system. It was either crazy madman zigzagging or the ability to correct your mistakes (which isnt very skillfull is it).

    Its early days to comment, but if anything, leap feels very good :).


    As an aside, nothing annoys me more than people who thought they were good because they were skilled but actually were only good because they were buffed. And then when it is tuned to a less ridiculous level they realise they actually have no map or situational awareness and cry foul, accusing the game developer of listening to the 'noobs'.



    All I can do is laugh at posts like this. No I was good because I was good and I can be just as easily as good in this build. That's like saying the Fade is hard to play, I mean who can't hold right click and be invisible as a fade?

    I go in to games as a skulk with upgrades and get more kills then good fade players, simply because I understand the game better than most. Now the class as others have mentioned is close to worthless, which is true. They watered it down so the baddies that can't aim a friggin rifle can now hit a skulk, because they lack any type of aiming required in any modern day shooter. Before you call somebody bad, at least learn to get kills on the so called "op classes".
  • SlithersSlithers Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73368Posts: 121Members
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Mar 15 2012, 05:38 PM) »
    @Slithers
    And the Skulk rage goes on! Remember how big the rage was with the changes and bugs in 199? But after sometime we learned how to use the new skulk and he was deadly again.
    Skulk speed is still increased compared to pre 199.

    And screaming out after 2 or so hours the patch was released is just weak. We hadn't even the time to really learn the new mechanics.
    And a post that I will quit if the movement won't get changed (4 times in a row now) just results you landing on the ignore list (yeah that nice little function in you UCP), because it's just pure rage/hate and doesn't really help anybody.

    And never compare a game that is in development with games that are over 14y old!


    Actually the games that were made 14 years ago are still better than the dog###### we play today. Comparing a Quake player or a cs 1.6 player to a league of legends or call of duty player is like comparing the Special Olympics from the standard Olympics.

    PS - UWE said the skulk was final and they weren't changing it.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    edited March 2012
    QUOTE (Slithers @ Mar 15 2012, 05:22 PM) »
    quake and cs


    One of these things is not like the other.


    Your point still stands, though, and I totally agree. People are going to hate on you but it's probably because they don't know the joy of strafing around aerowalk at top speed. They'll make excuses and rush out amateur game design crap to 'reason' this out, too. That's why I try to avoid mentioning bunnyhopping, aim, skill etc.

    The fact that skulks have to move all the way to walls bordering a room in order to move at a reasonable speed is dumb, whether you like skill-based movement mechanics or not. If you can't figure out why...well...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SideOfBeefSideOfBeef Join Date: 2012-03-04 Member: 148064Posts: 41Members
    QUOTE (internetexplorer @ Mar 15 2012, 06:23 PM) »
    One of these things is not like the other.


    Your point still stands, though, and I totally agree. People are going to hate on you but it's probably because they don't know the joy of strafing around aerowalk at top speed. They'll make excuses and rush out amateur game design crap to 'reason' this out, too. That's why I try to avoid mentioning bunnyhopping, aim, skill etc.

    The fact that skulks have to move all the way to walls bordering a room in order to move at a reasonable speed is dumb, whether you like skill-based movement mechanics or not. If you can't figure out why...well...


    I like that you try and dig at counter arguments, calling them amateur game design crap, while providing no justification for your own arguments. It's really good for the conversation.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Posts: 2,189Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    To be fair, just running up to marine straight ahead is not really the proper way of playing as a skulk anyway. (Even though this is what most people had been doing in 199 with moderate success due to the speed) In NS1 skulks aren't actually that fast either, and you wouldn't often just see skulks running straight into marines (since just like in this build that doesn't work out all too well)

    Now if only they would get rid of that goddamned minimap skulk detection, then you'd actually be able to properly hide and pull off ambushes.
    Steamname: Unkn0wn
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