The Marine Experience

BeagleSTBeagleST Join Date: 2012-02-20 Member: 146974Posts: 5Members
Hello! I play Marines a lot. Playing as Marines is a lot of fun if you like a tactical FPS style and/or the Sci-fi Marine style ala Aliens! As great as the mechanics are, it's the atmosphere I adore, and for this reason I really love NS2 and look forward to playing it a lot. Unfortunately, there is a feeling of negativity and unfairness that permeates most of my playtime as a Marine and I'd like to ask what Unknown Worlds were/are intending in their design in regards to the following points.

1. Do you feel the player is given effective feedback on how much they're hitting their target?
2. Are there other ways you could balance the Marines that avoid making them feel very purposefully crippled?
3. Do you acknowledge the problems with the Fade and how are you planning to bring it in line?
4. Are Marines supposed to be so open to harass?
Bonus: Would you kindly add a walk key for Marines?

1. It's difficult to tell just how effectively you are hitting aliens with the Rifle due to how fast they move and how quickly you fire.

It felt like it took about 30 bullets to kill a Skulk when I first started playing, but after a little offline testing I discovered with suprise it was only 10 and concluded my aim was insufficient. I believe NS2 needs to be telling new players how well they're aiming more effectively in-game through its hit detection presentation, either in common measures like stronger flesh-hit noises, more distinguishable blood-spray-esque visuals, or some other genius system. I believe this because if you don't realise you're actually just missing a lot, the Aliens seem unfairly tough to kill - Skulks, let alone Lerks and Fades which are even faster and harder to hit.

2. The Marines feel like they've been unintuitively handicapped in a lot of ways, which begs frustration from the player.

You can't run backwards - sure, this is to help Aliens be more killy at close range, I get it, but there has to be a better way to balance that, because it feels horrible. You get an alien in close quarters with you, your impulse is to dodge him biting your ass off and you remember "Oh right, I'm actually just snail-speed piece of meat". Every time I press S in this game I feel like I'm getting punched in the groin. Cue throwing hands up in the air and saying "I can't do jack". I'm not suggesting you make Aliens worse at close-range combat - in my mind if they're in range of biting me, they've won the movement battle and they should have a really good chance of killing me. What I am suggesting is balance it in a way so the Marine doesn't feel like there's nothing they can do - even if running at full speed backwards doesn't actually help, it would FEEL more like we had a chance.

There are other things like this that readily come to mind. The Grenade Launcher is nearly impossible to hit any moving target with, but then it doesn't do any more damage per second to structures than the other weapons. You see it and go "oh man, this'll be cool!' and then as soon as you use it you can physically feel how its been nerfed into the ground. You see the flamethrower and go "oh man I can't wait to burn out some infestation" and then you do and the structures you set on fire laugh as they get gently tickled. You spend the money to set up a bunch of sentries to protect your flanks from harrassment and then a Fade blinks behind them and kills them all because they have a limited arc and do as much damage as an assault Rifle anyway.
Then you look at the Alien counterparts. You watch Aliens 3 hit your sentries with Bile Bombs while your GL is worth butt, you get stuck for ages having to clear Hydras and whips no matter what equipment you have while Lerks and Fades ignore your sentries like it's cool.
I'm constantly forced into the train of thought that everything Marine balance related gets handled with the kiddy gloves. Whether or not this is actually true, it feels like this, because the way Marines have been balanced makes me aware of how I've been handicapped, and it feels very unintuitive.

3. The Fade is straight-up broken.

This is where I go from "feels unfair" to "is actually unfair". I'm not sure if there is a Player vs. Player game concept wherein a class with invisibility, invulnerability, teleportation/flight, the second-highest health and armor in the game, the highest DPS in the game, regeneration and heat vision would be balanced, but I am sure that an FPS is as unsuitable as it gets. The Aliens feel very powerful, but in most cases you can see how the developers have balanced their strengths and weaknesses, or at least intended them to be balanced - Skulks hurt but are fragile, Lerks are impossible hit but are (meant to) be more harassers than killers, Onos is beefy but really easy to hit. The Fade does not have strengths or weaknesses, it has everything. It kills you when you're on your own. It kills you when you're with 5 other people. It flies into your base and kills you in the middle of your entire team. This would already be frustrating, but then an even worse thing happens - it leaves. Unless your mouse does not have a right click, you cannot die as a Fade unless you make a catastrophic error and get too greedy - most of the time a sentence like that is an emotional balance whine, but here it's just a fact.

So - is it part of the design intent for the Fade to be able to solo half-a-dozen Marines? Is it a trickle-down where the Fade is meant to be balanced for top-tier players and non-competitive Marines are getting stuck with the short stick? What are your thoughts on this/design intent for the Fade and how do you plan to change the Fade in the future, if at all?


4. GET OFF MY RESOURCE TOWER SKULK

Lone Skulks can harass Marine Extractors with impunity. There's no way to stop a Skulk from going where it likes on the map due to vents and shortcuts and so many paths to choose from - if you say Sentries watching the RT, then you need to invest in at least 2 or 3 and the money's wasted as soon as anything not a single Skulk comes along - and the Marines have no comparable options (running alone into infested territory to axe Harvesters not reccomended). I think it's a good and legit tactic for splitting the Marine team up, but I feel it's just too easy right now for a Skulk and too frustrating to constantly be run ragged by it as the Marines without any real way to deal with it beyond constantly running to shoot the little buggers off.


The above are the most pressing things that have come to mind. Thanks for any response and keep on truckin', I really look forward to getting to play a lot more NS2, you've got a great game here.


Bonus: Please add a walk key for Marines! Currently the only way to move silently is to crouch, which is not always ideal. Walking would be useful for silent movement, listening out for enemies, and for cautious advances, particularly into dangerous rooms.

Comments

  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Posts: 1,301Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    1. UWE is aware of this. There are so many threads about it and they changed the lagcompensation in this build.
    2. Marines don't have all the tech (exo,minigun,railgun) are missing. Also GL is an AoE weapon and can shoot around corners. Also it a effective way of getting free kills if you spam em into the direction the aliens flee. If you hit the hive it also kills eggs/crags/skulks/lerks/etc. nearby. Cyrcle strafe instead of pushing S works wonders.
    3. Fades are not OP, you are just fighting wrong against em. 1 Marine can kill 1 fade easy (with SG or even LMG) if he has armor 2 and knows how to avoid the 1. slash and knows how to cyrcle strafe and the environment. Flamers also works really well. Fades have alot of weakness, they can't really sneak because you hear the blink miles away, it has low healt (and very low armor) gorge almost has the same amount but alot more armor, a lone fade dies quick if it gets surprised or a marine cuts his fleeroute, if he misses a slash his chance to survive dropped by 50%, 1 flamer in a little group can change a 80% winchance against the group to a 0% chance.
    4. Marines have Nanoshield and can recycle. A quick reaction force and a mac solve alot of RTs.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    image
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,767Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    2) Jump my friend jump! :p Strafe jump, circle strafe. Sometimes pressing w and dodging forward is actually the best thing because it confuses the skulk and puts you in a better position to fire as he overshoots.
    3) I think there are genuine problems with the fade. In the hands of a good player, he is very very very godlike to the point of it being a one man army (frenzy is a big part of this problem). In the hands of the average pub player, i think the fade is actually quite balanced though.
    4) Alot of this has to do with map design i think. Otherwise, mines :p. Or nanoshield + recycle and waste his time.
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Posts: 1,369Members
    For knowing when you hit, focus on the crosshair flickering red. After playing quake for a long time with similar stuff, I'm really used to that and I use it a lot. Once you get a feel for how many shots each gun takes to kill each lifeform, you can start to gauge your damage even at long ranges.
  • Tool8Tool8 Join Date: 2012-01-01 Member: 139405Posts: 110Members
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 20 2012, 05:54 PM) »
    Fades are not OP, you are just fighting wrong against em. 1 Marine can kill 1 fade easy (with SG or even LMG) if he has armor 2 and knows how to avoid the 1. slash and knows how to cyrcle strafe and the environment. Flamers also works really well. Fades have alot of weakness, they can't really sneak because you hear the blink miles away, it has low healt (and very low armor) gorge almost has the same amount but alot more armor, a lone fade dies quick if it gets surprised or a marine cuts his fleeroute, if he misses a slash his chance to survive dropped by 50%, 1 flamer in a little group can change a 80% winchance against the group to a 0% chance.


    Why don't people stop believing this...? Fades are still super OP at the moment. Most games are lost as soon as the second hive is up. The following minutes are mostly fades grinding down marines. If you die as fade it's because you made a very bad decision. It's true, you can kill an average pubgame-fade if he misjudged the situation. But it's almost impossible to kill a really good and experienced fade.
    Whatsoever I find jetpacks have already helped a lot, because it's harder to kill marines with JPs as fade.
    I am very positive that UWE will find a way to have all lifeforms balanced until release but I don't understand why people keep saying, Fades were not OP right now.
  • SkieSkie Skulk Progenitor Join Date: 2003-10-18 Member: 21766Posts: 656Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    1. There isn't enough feedback and hit regging is fundamentally borked at the moment.
    2. That being said, if hitreg is fixed, you should be able to kill two skulks easily with each weapon magazine. Running sideways is faster than backwards, and you keep your momentum in air. You should be able to 1+1=2.
    3. Only takes two shotgun shots to take down a fade. If you just hit once, and your buddy does as well, he's dead meat in less than a second. Just gotta be better.
    4. Keep the pressure on the alien team so they don't have time to eat your RTs. Kill so many skulks that they can't spawn all the time. Kill THEIR RTs to keep them busy. Get phasegates around the map to be able to save the RTs. There are many remedies, but the most efficient solution is to use them all.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Posts: 454Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I understand why aliens are seemingly overpowered but the game is not far from getting good balance. There are some issues but if I would bet on which team is stronger I would bet on marines(even though numbers favor aliens), this will become more apparent when the peformance and hitreg issues are fixed. Note though, I'm looking at the game from competitive prespective but as players get better in ns you will probably see it on public servers as well.


    1. It's difficult to tell just how effectively you are hitting aliens with the Rifle due to how fast they move and how quickly you fire.
    I agree that it can be hard at times it can be hard to know if you are hitting the aliens or not but you will get that feeling after playing the game for awhile.
    When the hitreg gets fixed you will see marines win most 1v1 situation if they are not new to the game. A good marine can easily defend a corritor vs 1-2 skulks alone with an LMG, the other lifeforms are also quite weak when they are attacking marines alone. Aliens have to coordinate to be able to take down marine pushes.

    2. The Marines feel like they've been unintuitively handicapped in a lot of ways, which begs frustration from the player.
    One of the best features in ns is that marines can not move at full speed backwards, they however can still dodge by sidestepping and jumping. There is also a way to jump backwards by turning around 90°, side jump and then face the skulk again. Because marines cannot simply move backwards they have to position them self very well, but I don't want to write about this in details atm.

    The role of the grenade launcher is not to kill lifeforms, but to kill structures. The only reason why you buy gl's over shotguns is because you need a range aoe abilities to take down alien structures, if you need a powerful weapon to kill lifeforms you should go for shotguns.
    Flamethrowers are more of a support weapon atm, it limits alien play but is not really powerful on his own.
    Turrets are also support structures, they do their role really well giving marines extra damage when fighting lifeforms. Turrets should not replace players, you use players to defend the rts and to defend base, turrets just helps you do it.


    3. The Fade is straight-up broken.
    When players start talking about how imba aliens are when 2nd hive is up the main reason is the fades, they get so many fades and kill everything. The problem here lies not in the fades but in the fact you allowed aliens to hold enough rt's to get so many fades. If marines have more rt's than aliens they can easily overpower even fades with shotguns/lmgs and upgrades while they don't get up to ridicules numbers. Also if the marines keep the alien rt's down alien's won't be able to refade making the game easy for marines to finish.
    Its true that a good fade might be able to survive all game but if the marines are playing well he won't be able to do any real damage alone.

    4. GET OFF MY RESOURCE TOWER SKULK
    The secret to preven aliens from attacking your rt's is pressure, you have to keep the pressure on the alien team and don't allow them to think about anything else than defence. If they decide to send 1 skulk to bite the rts you can simply send 1 marine to defend them. 1 Marine wins skulk in a fight, even though aliens have mobility advandage its still worth it for the marine to chase and keep the res alive. This allows marines to get more upgrades and more weapons to overpower the aliens.

    Aliens must keep attacking the marine rt's or the marines will simply overpower the alien team with med/ammo packs and upgrades.

    Walk Key
    +1 to walk key.


    ---
    Who knows, I might be wrong about the balance but I'm pretty sure I'm not. I hope this simplified writeup proves useful :).
    There is no competitive balance or casual players balance. The game is either balanced or not balanced.
    It's the same game after all.


    NS2 gameplay thoughts
    NS1 competitive play


    All my posts are my personal view, I do not speak for a community or anyone else.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Posts: 278Members
    4.

    Press C

    its the Map

    check it often

    If every marine follows this advice, many RT's can be saved.
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (BeagleST @ Feb 20 2012, 04:14 PM) »
    I really love NS2 and look forward to playing it a lot. Unfortunately, there is a feeling of negativity and unfairness that permeates most of my playtime as a Marine and I'd like to ask what Unknown Worlds were/are intending in their design in regards to the following points.


    At last! Someone else who gets it!

    Although you are probably not going to get very far, I have tried get a discussion about how Marines 'feel' when you play them. Almost all of the replies focus on gameplay and balance, we all know about those issues, it's in beta.

    The Marines have not had the same attention as the aliens when it comes feel. They are a checklist of stuff Marines need. From a gameplay aspect, Marines do not have the same amount of highs and lows, or really, not enough highs, it feels like a grind.

    I guess Marines have lots of toys, but none of them are really fun to play with. I don't want specific changes, I just want the Marines to feel as awesome as the aliens do.

    If a fade it going to tear my face off all the time, I damn well want to enjoy it when it happens!
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (sam8uca @ Feb 20 2012, 03:29 PM) »
    I guess Marines have lots of toys, but none of them are really fun to play with. I don't want specific changes, I just want the Marines to feel as awesome as the aliens do.

    If a fade it going to tear my face off all the time, I damn well want to enjoy it when it happens!


    wait til the exo suit is implemented.
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 908Members
    Lol, like Mushookees I spend about 50% of my run/sprint time with the full-screen map open. It is your friend.
    - 1991 is the Halcyon year of gaming -
     
    Best quote off locked NS2 forum ever:
     
    "The Rifle has a higher DPS than the Shotgun, whether you choose to believe it or not."
  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Posts: 391Members
    1: There are already much more feedback whenever you score a hit especially compared to NS1, you've got the hit indicators around your crosshair, the rather exaggerated blood effects, and the target alien also providing loud audible cues when taking damage. The problem right now however is that sometimes these inicators, such as the blood effects, are triggered even when a hit isn't actually scored, and is a bug attributed mostly to low server tickrates and other connection issues, UWE is always working to improve the game in this aspect, so its best to wait for a few more builds and see if things improve.

    2: The slow backwards running has been discussed to death already, but it is here to stay. It is the exact same as it was in NS1, and was put in place for a reason. It is made to heavily discourage backwards strafing while shooting, its the first impulse you wan't to do when you see skulks rapidly approaching you, but it makes the game more irritating to alien players who also need to have a little fun. Shooting while running backwards would make marines so much more proficient in fighting kharaa, as you're effectively prolonging the moment where you can unload your rifle/shotgun/flamethrower at the enemy skulk, and the skulk is still too far away to do anything to you, and essentially makes it so there is no reason not to run backwards while shooting as its the most efficient way to combat melee units. Imagine being a zergling fighting against a vulture in SC1, and see how much fun that is. It also forces marines to be more creative when dodging skulks. It may not seem like it, but strafe jumping is very effective at confusing skulks and its sometimes even possible to jump over the skulk if it was moving fast enough, it makes melee more interesting, as well as raising the skill cap for people to develop since there isn't just one way to maximize efficiency when fighting skulks.

    In regards to the grenade launcher, you must not confuse what its role is, as it is by no means meant to be a killing machine, but rather a tactical tool to take out entrenched alien defenses. Perhaps its role could be conveyed more clearly, but it was never intended to be able to hit a fast moving target such as a skulk or a lerk, but to take out Hydras, Crags, hiding-idle lerks, and hydra-farming gorges. It is meant to take out relatively stationary targets without exposing the user to dangers that they would have had to if they directly confronted the specified targets. Ns1 was the same way, and you must understand that things like backwards speed and the grenade behavior, aren't some recently made arbitrary decisions made by the devs for kicks and giggles, but were made a long time ago to create one of the most balanced and high quality games to come out of Half-Life modding.

    If you want more plain and simple killing power behind the marine weapons, you should have played the builds in the 150-160 era, where grenades detonated upon impact just like every other COD-BF3 duplicate and flame throwers did ludicrous damage. It definitely made the game more fun for the marine, but it also made the game absolutely miserable for the alien team. I distinctly remember entire alien teams rage quitting once marines got grenade launchers. Just imagine your frustration when being easily dispatched after buying that expensive grenade launcher or flame thrower, and then increase that frustration ten-fold when you've spent 50 res on a fade and waited the gestation time only to lose it all in mere seconds due to the barrage of grenades, and not just feeling, but knowing that any additional effort you exert is futile in the impending hellstorm of fire and grenades. That's what it was like back then for the alien team, and appropriate action was taken to put the grenade launcher back into its ns1's traditional place, and make the flame thrower less of the "death-ray" that it was, but a more tactical tool for use in coordinated marine squads.

    Marine sentries, once again, have been discussed to death, and in response to community feedback, have been repeatably nerfed, and were afterwards then further nerfed by community mods. Their role again has been debated and as i understand, are not intended to lock down rooms and make them impenetrable, but to be merely a deterrent and a delay so marine players can respond to the threat.

    To the contrary, alien static defenses are particularly pitiful when compared to marine sentries. Hydras can be taken out by a single rifle marine without the marine taking much damage, and are made short work of by grenade launchers, defining the appropriate use of grenade launchers. Whips also are hardly a threat to coordinated marine teams, as anything less than an army's worth of whips can be dispatched by marines at a distance, causing a costly blow to the alien team.

    3: Fades are an ongoing issue ever since build 178, but they have been time after time been nerfed and at the moment, are manageable, but i admit are still not ideal. Shotguns and team coordination are simply the best counter-measure to avoid being torn apart by fades, but it still isn't an easy task. I've been able to solo fades with shotguns, but learning to dodge the swipes and predict where the fade will pop out takes time to master and i understand the frustration that players might feel when fighting against fades. Frankly, if the devs decide to implement Yuuki's Fade blink momentum mod, a lot of these issues would be alleviated. Other than keeping up to date with balance tweaks in upcoming builds, i only recommend that you play against fades frequently, learn the typical behavior that players display, recognize the distinctive blink noise that fades make and try and play with a few friends that you know you can count on to watch your back. Also, don't be hesitant to pursue a fleeing fade, as despite fades seeming like they are invincible killing machines, fades (200hp + 50 armor = 300 effective hp) in reality have about the same effective health as a gorge (150 hp + 70 armor = 290 effective hp.), and when facing a shotgun, actually have less effective hp than a gorge (shotguns are weak against armor, and fades actually have a lot less armor than gorges). When seeing a fade attempting to flee combat, you'd be surprised how effective a well placed shotgun round has on a retreating fade exposing its back to you.

    4: It is indeed annoying that lone skulks can leave a devastating impact on the marine economy, but you need to keep in mind that the smaller Kharaa lifeforms have always been the masters of harassment, hence how skulks got their name in the first place. Sentry placement, marine commander warnings, and phase gates are key to protecting your res nodes, especially when you've got many res nodes around the map to be looking out for. Also, if the commander uses his free nano-shield on the res tower, it gives marine players plenty of time to respond to a skulk munching on the tower, and recycling the tower at the same time minimizes res loss in the event that no marines can respond in time to practically no loss. I don't think we need to re-structure the game in such a way further to make it impossible for a skulk to munch on a res tower and feel as though they are actually making a difference in the game as a whole, and make it so territory control locks down a room to the point that it is impervious to the individual players, as this is still a fps/rts. If a marine team is really determined to lock down a res tower, they can sentry farm a room to guarantee anything short of a coordinated alien assault won't penetrate the static defenses, allowing the marine players to respond appropriately if necessary, and i feel this is close to how the game should ideally function.



    Don't get me wrong, its great that people voice their opinions, and i am glad you feel passionate about the game enough to write a topic as long as the one you did. All feedback , as long as its constructive, is appreciated and is best stated while the game is still in beta state and can be more easily implemented. Hope this post is informative enough for you, and helps you understand why some of the design decisions that currently are in the game were made.
    image
  • BeagleSTBeagleST Join Date: 2012-02-20 Member: 146974Posts: 5Members
    Thanks for all your responses! I certainly didn't mean to imply that all of the game was actually imbalanced apart from the Fade, I more meant that it feels imbalanced and that as a new player that perceived imbalance can be just as frustrating. For example, the Flamer is actually one of my favourite weapons, it's incredibly powerful once you 'get' its support role, I just meant it feels very underwhelming when you first get it because you expect it to follow the trope of burning out infestation. I just wanted to voice this avenue of how it can feel unfair to play as the Marines sometimes - I've had a fair few friends who like the style of NS2 and have tried the Beta who got turned off of it because they played Marines and had a punishing introduction to it. As someone who's only played for about 24 hours, I feel like I'm in a good position to voice that "feel" of imbalance that a new player can fall victim to.

    That said, as someone who's only played 24 hours and then made a thread like this, you guys all have helpful, constructive, polite responses to a T - thanks so much for that! Your opinions and advice are much appreciated.
  • Visor1Visor1 Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140300Posts: 69Members
    edited February 2012
    A great fade is rather OP but in general I think it's the combo of fade and bilebomb coming in with the 2nd hive that's the actual cause. Once that 2nd hive goes down a single gorge can be cloaked using the upgrade outside a base waiting for marines to attack then bile bomb half the base. If you have two doing it marines have to beacon asap even if they have 1-2 guarding the base simply because they can't take the chance their isn't any more coming to attack. This means marines are trapped into keeping to many defeders or running the risk of loosing the base when they try and push the aliens. And to me that's the part that makes no sense, why do marines get penalised so badly when attacking and why do aliens have such base destroying power that costs 10pres.

    I guess you could say that once exo suit and mini gun are in things will change but like the jetpacks by the time they can afford them they won't have the pres to buy them that many times due to aliens having total map control. I also don't understand why aliens have onos as a base destroyer when the gorge seems far better at it. Don't get me wrong the onos is very strong it's just that it seems redunant since gorge can wreck bases by hive 2.

    Thoughts

    I would like to see the bilebomb attack be made a single target attack This should atleast give marines a decent chance to attack aliens or setup some defence in a vein attempt to keep mutliple RTs so they can atleast get some late game tech without turtling their main base for 30mins. The only thing I'd change on the fade is reducing the 100% percent damage reduction down to 80-90% during blink. The reason for this is if a fade does take damage and blinks off he actually has a chance at being killed. I really think that's all it would take to give two good marines with shotties a chance at beating a good fade.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • MkilbrideMkilbride Join Date: 2010-01-07 Member: 69952Posts: 428Members
    BileBOmb's damage could be cut by 66%
    QUOTE
    GIGA
    ONOS
    BREAKER

    Yours is the axe that will pierce the vault of heaven!

    Onos Rider, I salute thee!


    Core i5 2500K @ 4.5GHZ, 8GB RAM 1866MHZ, GTX670 SLI OC'ed 30%(Increase Voltage), 128GB Samsung 830 SSD + 2 1TB HDDs.) Windows 7 64-bit Professional
  • Visor1Visor1 Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140300Posts: 69Members
    QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Feb 20 2012, 11:30 PM) »
    BileBOmb's damage could be cut by 66%


    Doing that would leave it useless for taking down a structure while still being a pain for marines having to repair all their buildings while leaving the attack still able to destroy macs in afew hits. But hopefully it gets a decent nerf either way.
  • WackOhWackOh Join Date: 2004-07-25 Member: 30100Posts: 39Members
    there are a few things i feel can be done to the bilebomb:

    1. reduce damage - not 66% though, i feel thats too much, maybe just 33%?
    2. slow its attack speed
    3. lower its range
    4. increase its energy usage
    5. each time the gorge uses bile, it is slowed

    im not saying implement all 5, just to explore which one would be more feasible

    i personally think number 4 and 5 together would suffice. many a time you would get a gorge just jumping around like mad while biling. people say well shoot the gorge its easy. ive seen it enough times, a single gorge jumping around amongst the sometimes tightly packed structures and dodge the majority of panicked marines trying to stop the gorge from killing the everything. i feel if you slow the gorge down each time it biles it makes for a much much easier target, and when combined with an increased energy usage it can reduce the amount of damage done by a gorge.

    this can also combat gorge orgy parties, where even if 4 and 5 were implemented the damage will be done but thats an alien investment of all that res and effort
  • tocztocz Join Date: 2012-02-12 Member: 145070Posts: 17Members
    Don't talk about balancing until all guns/upgrades/w/e is added in the game. This is like balancing World of Warcraft pvp for level 80 when the cap is 85. We still don't have all the upgrades and tools that we will eventually have in future patches. Play the game for fun and find bugs. That's what this beta is for. Balance is not yet a priority.
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    This thread started talking about how a new person feels when playing as a Marine, most replies were about nerd here, buff there, % change this and that.

    I have played multiplayer shooters now for over two decades. I enjoy tough FPS, SWAT3/4 being an example of a slower, more brutal game style. I don't need to win to enjoy the game, but I do want to enjoy it when I fail.

    To put it simply, playing as aliens feels awesome, playing as Marines doesn't. Marines need more awesome!
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Posts: 1,767Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (sam8uca @ Feb 21 2012, 06:51 PM) »
    To put it simply, playing as aliens feels awesome, playing as Marines doesn't. Marines need more awesome!


    Are your marine comm's researching shotguns....? :p They are pretty awesome. Bang and the skulk is gone! (most of the time).
    Gorge bilebomb forever.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    i play marines for shotguns and riflebutt

    (oh and jetpacks now)

    riflebutting an ono to death is one of my goals in life
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,903Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think it is normal, that when you are new to a game, you are losing most of the time.
    On a complex game like NS the learning curve is even higher and as a result you lose more for a longer time at the beginning.
    The first instinct in an asymmetric game is to say: "I'm still losing after all this hours. The other team must be overpowered."
    But have you tried to play the aliens?
    1. Its really not that easy.
    2. You learn things from your fails, that helps you play marine with more skill.
    For example: This skulk is not a machine, not an ai. It is a human like you, and you can confuse him by the right way of dodging. (Don't you ever use your "s" key ;))

    Thanks for your opinion. It's important. But most of your points will fade away (mhh... maybe not the fade-one) when you are playing aliens a little more.

    This said, I want to say in addition that I can understand you. It is frustrating at the time when fades come into play. But as soon as you got flamethrowers you can hunt them down. While burning their energy is drained. This means no blinking. Just hunt them down. Even without jetpacks this is a viable tactic. But most of the time the other marines doesn't get it. They are dieing every time, instead just hunt the fade down when he retreats.

    The same way it is very frustrating if your only option in mid to late game is to play skulk, because you lost your res on some shotgun. Especially in late game you can't do anything as skulk besides dieing quickly. The 1hit-kill-shotgun does not make it more fun to play skulk.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    edited February 2012
    It'd be quite cool if, when you kill an alien, you got a little box popping up on the right of your screen that gives you a report on your effectiveness.

    Like, it calculates your hit percentage for that encounter, what weapon you used, lifetime effectivenss with that weapon (number of kills, average hit %) and how many of that lifeform you've killed.

    That would let you know if you're actually hitting or just missing a lot, after the fact at least.


    Fades aren't overpowered, they are annoying yes, but not overpowered. The problem you may be having is that marines are strong in groups, you can't reasonably solo a fade, which kind of sucks but is also sort of unavoidable.

    Marines use ranged weapons, which means that in groups, they multiply their firepower and coverage and can support each other.

    Aliens use melee weapons, which means that in groups, they get in the way of each other.

    It is kind of built into the very nature of the sides that marines get better in groups, so that means that in order to balance the two against each other, you have to make marines unable to deal with solo aliens, otherwise they would be unstoppable if they grouped up.

    Of course this is little consolation if you happen to be the one who dies for the group to win, that is annoying and rightly so, but there isn't really anything you can do about it sort of changing the entire game.

    If I have one suggestion, don't go first, try to throw other players between aliens and you, and killsteal all the time. Generally just be a horrible person to your teammates. It makes the game more fun.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • sam8ucasam8uca Join Date: 2011-02-11 Member: 81359Posts: 40Members
    QUOTE (elodea @ Feb 21 2012, 09:56 AM) »
    Are your marine comm's researching shotguns....? :p They are pretty awesome. Bang and the skulk is gone! (most of the time).


    The Comm is getting the sg, just the aliens won't stand still long enough!

    Ok, I am not happy with the weapons at the moment, but I don't feel like I can judge them until the performance improves. Performance has to be rock solid to give the Marines a chance with the speed the aliens move at.

    The odd one out though, is the flamethrower, as a Marine you think it will be the business, but it feels like it is spraying cotton wool around. A toddler with matches would seem more threatening! But as an alien, I run like hell when I see it coming. This is how I see a lot of the Marine stuff, it works, but it needs to feel better when being used, more positive feedback from your action.
  • StarkwindStarkwind Join Date: 2011-07-26 Member: 112394Posts: 41Members
    Just for fun sake (this would be OP as hell but sometimes OP = Funzies) id love to see exosuit dual wielding shotguns ;p

    now that would make marines awesome.

    perhaps even a semi or automatic shot gun :P
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