NS2 Starcraft

ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
edited February 2012 in Modding
Add a deeper strategic value to the game
This is a request for someone who can use lua and who think the game needs a deeper strategic experience. At the moment I don´t think the rest of things that will be implemented would add much more to the strategic level. If someone could write this mod it would add much to the game. I do NOT have public play in mind for this mod, this is for organized play. Oh, and please, haters hate somewhere else. =)
If you write this, I think this starcraft-mod will be to ns2 what ns1 was to HL: just wonderful!!

So, here we go. Major changes:

All alien life forms on 1 hive. Make hive need to evolve into lair in order to get fade and onos.
As with marines, let aliens get all tech routes from beginning. (crags, shade and whatever)

Extra Hive/CC gives 50% (or something like that) extra res for each node. Make expanding similiar to sc2, where it is super crucial for the income rather than for the tech.

Remove energy system and:

Make creep/drifters cost res
Make pheromones use res
Make obs scan/recall use res
Make dub step ball use res
A commander should have to make more choices.

Make creep like in sc2: you have 1 active. Killing the active should make the com need to put another one down.

Change gorge roll: Remove gorge building, and make it a "defensive spell caster", similar to the defiler in bw. Make it use res when using "magic". This would make the gorge roll more obvious.

Increase skulk movement on creep with 30%. Fighting on creep should be no-no for rines early game. Just as in sc2.
Make creep die fast to flamethrower.

Make turrets 50% of current HP/armor. Keep the dps. Fighting static defense are boring in all games, ever.

Increase ARC dps. At the moment it takes one arc 3 minutes to kill a hive. Thats too long.
Make it have longer range. It should have more of a siege tank roll from sc2.
Reduce HP on arcs. Siege tanks are powerful but weak.
Reduce ARC splash dmg. Makes commander micro skill more useful.

Sculcs should be able to evolve into banelings
Marines should have Rocket launcher. Exploding beneath a sculc should throw it in the air, making mid air RL kills possible for rines who have played quake or TFC.

Fade changes:
armor 1 should make fades 3 hit marine. a2 4 hit. a3 should make you dont get para while stomped.
Marine With full hp 0 armor should be 2 hitted by fade.
Make ns2 fade blink an upg, otherwise it should be like in ns1

Make upg blink fades not be able to blink while on fire. Reduce time on fire to 0.2-0.3 secs since last time it was it from fire.
Flamethrower should be a "soft" counter to fades.

Smaller changes:
Make stomp para marines.
Reduce bilebomb dps
Reduce onos model size with 30%. It's just too big.
Make attacks with onos do area damage.
Remove the need of advanced armory to get protolab.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    edited February 2012
    Some good ideas, specially the lair, I like it.

    >Remove gorge building, and make it a "defensive spell caster", similar to the defiler in bw.

    Umbra then.

    What about some mutalisk like attack for the lerk, something you can throw at the marines.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
    I really like the lerk idea. It would have to be weaker though, going mass lerk would then be a cool strategy early game to mid game to counter if rines try to expand. But then I would like it to be as sc2 where armor is the counter, instead of like now when spikes seems to ignore armor.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    I like your idea of creating more trade-offs, and I support that, more choices for commanders, instead of just spamming abilities.
    +1
    Now I will try to comment on your changes, as I think some of them are great, and others, not so much.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    So, here we go. Major changes:

    All alien life forms on 1 hive. Make hive need to evolve into lair in order to get fade and onos.

    I like the idea of all lifeforms being available at one hive, they cost resources(requires map control) anyway.
    However, I'm not sure I like the idea that you have to upgrade your hive to get the higher lifeforms.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    As with marines, let aliens get all tech routes from beginning. (crags, shade and whatever)

    I dont like this one, I think it adds greatly to alien strategy to have a 3 different ways to do, and can't use all of them from gamestart.
    Also, it would probably end up being too powerful, going carapace, and using shade cloak. Keep imagining new ones.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Extra Hive/CC gives 50% (or something like that) extra res for each node. Make expanding similiar to sc2, where it is super crucial for the income rather than for the tech.

    I think this should only be for the marines, but it should be alot less than 50% per node, maybe a 10% increase for every CC.
    That will give the marines a reason to expand with more CCs, aliens already have one, unlock more tech.
    Marines would get CCs to unlock tech/upgrades faster.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Remove energy system and:

    Make creep/drifters cost res
    Make pheromones use res
    Make obs scan/recall use res
    Make dub step ball use res
    A commander should have to make more choices.

    Yes, remove energy!
    It is a useless resource that could have been replaced by a simple cooldown on abilities, without making any gameplay difference to now.
    Pheromones however, are supposed to be the alien equalent to marine waypoints, and they should not cost resources, imo.
    More on that in my thread:
    Nano Shield, Beacon, Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Change gorge roll: Remove gorge building, and make it a "defensive spell caster", similar to the defiler in bw. Make it use res when using "magic". This would make the gorge roll more obvious.

    I don't like taking away more of the gorges abilities from NS1, he is missing abilities, he doesn't have too many.
    Also I don't think he should be anything like the defiler in broodwar, he is more like a combat medic/light support.
    I think the gorge should have more abilities, or rather, more structures to place down, more choices.
    And I really like Schimmels idea from the prototype mod, where the gorge cut put mini-crags/mini-shades/mini-shifts which had the passive ability of the specific chamber.
    The gorge would be able to place down the chambers as the commander unlocks them with Crag/Shade/Shift hives.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Increase skulk movement on creep with 30%. Fighting on creep should be no-no for rines early game. Just as in sc2.

    Marines are already slowed down drasticly on infestation, and shows them on the minimap to all aliens.
    I don't aliens need to be further buffed while on infestation, it already seems to be working as intended on that regard.
    Also, I'm not sure if you have any idea what celerity is gonna do, but it will make all aliens with the upgrade, alot faster.
    Even further buffing that on infestation would be way too powerful.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Make creep die fast to flamethrower.

    I think it's just a matter of making the infestation texture be able to take damage from the flamer, instead of just the cyst.
    Flamer does massive amount of damage if you keep your aim on one target.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,868Members, Squad Five Blue
    Reply, continued:
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Make turrets 50% of current HP/armor. Keep the dps. Fighting static defense are boring in all games, ever.

    I think turret hp is fine, they should be able to hold off hive 1 aliens.
    However, what I think should be done about them, is make it more expensive to fill up rooms with them.
    So my solution would be the same solution as NS1 got to this problem, back in the day, make them tied to be within a certain range of the robotics facility.
    That would make it less viable/alot more expensive to spam corridors and the whole map with static defenses.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Increase ARC dps. At the moment it takes one arc 3 minutes to kill a hive. Thats too long.
    Make it have longer range. It should have more of a siege tank roll from sc2.
    Reduce HP on arcs. Siege tanks are powerful but weak.
    Reduce ARC splash dmg. Makes commander micro skill more useful.

    I would suggest you bringing at least 3 ARCs if you're gonna siege a hive.
    I agree that due to the high cost, they are not a very viable stategy until very lategame.
    The HP is fine, bilebomb does quick work of them.
    They already are powerful, but weak.
    I think a splash reduction would be in place, as the splash will have an upgrade in the future, 30% splash range.
    Though do I think that the actual range of the ARCs could be increased, in many cases you have to get them into the actual hiveroom to siege it. That means gorges can easily kill them and marines have a hard time defending them.
    But maybe that is more of a map problem than a problem with the ARCs?
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Sculcs should be able to evolve into banelings
    Marines should have Rocket launcher. Exploding beneath a sculc should throw it in the air, making mid air RL kills possible for rines who have played quake or TFC.

    Rocket Launcher? :P
    I like the idea of weapons that you need prediction to use well, but a rocket launcher in NS2?
    Don't we already have the grenade launcher?
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Fade changes:
    armor 1 should make fades 3 hit marine. a2 4 hit. a3 should make you dont get para while stomped.
    Marine With full hp 0 armor should be 2 hitted by fade.
    Make ns2 fade blink an upg, otherwise it should be like in ns1

    Make upg blink fades not be able to blink while on fire. Reduce time on fire to 0.2-0.3 secs since last time it was it from fire.
    Flamethrower should be a "soft" counter to fades.

    4 hits for a fade is ALOT for the fade. Armor 3 should be required for that.
    However I think armor 1 should prevent fades from 2-hitting marines, instead of armor 2.
    I think the blink mechanic(with fade momentum mod) works pretty well.
    Why make blink an upgrade if they aliens will research it every game anyway?
    It will become the new "bilebomb", that you always forgot to research as a commander.
    The flamer is already a soft counter to fades, and that works pretty well with the fade momentum mod as well.
    Against flamers, fades have to be very careful about their adrenaline, or they won't be able to escape.
    A flamer in a squad of shotguns is a big deal for fades, and hard for them to kill.
    They get 2-shotted by shotguns, and their dead. Or get put on fire and can't blink efficiently enough to escape.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Smaller changes:
    Make stomp para marines.

    I think skulks should be left as the "scouter class", instead of giving away most of their lategame purpose away to the onos.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Reduce bilebomb dps

    I don't think the DPS is the issue.
    I think it's more the range, and the AoE of bilebomb thats the real issue.
    Gorges aim for one structure from a LONG distance, but splash takes everything nearby(8 meters?!) down with it.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Reduce onos model size with 30%. It's just too big.
    Make attacks with onos do area damage.

    I think it's more of a map issue with the maps being too small for the onos to pass through.
    I think AoE melee attacks would be okay for the onos, but not for any other alien.
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Remove the need of advanced armory to get protolab.

    Noo, we need our tech paths.
    Protolab is supposed to be one of the last things you unlock as marines.
    That's the way we should keep it. Else you will begin to see early exosuits(when they get implemented).
    Exosuits vs skulk/lerk/gorge will not be much fun for aliens :P

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    QUOTE
    Remove the need of advanced armory to get protolab.


    I think this one is a good idea, I feel there is very little build order variations right now compared to starcraft, having these to alternative and expansive solutions would be a nice branching in the tech tree. Also jetpacks or heavies without weapons and upgrade shouldn't be to overpowered. Shotgun might be a problem though.

    Just a random idea, but if you wanted to do something closer to starcraft in terms of economy you could lower the rts income and put a lot of them in circle around tech points and add a tech point requirement for them to work, like mineral patches.
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
    edited February 2012
    Its kinda sad, I have to say. Considering the flak and indifference I get due to your ignorance of how the game should be, something like this will never happen to NS2:

    http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66856

    If the strategic possibilities of this game will be nothing but GL rushing and kill the 2nd hive before fade, this game will be stillborn. I'm still looking forward of seeing a organized game with equal skilled players where aliens get 2nd hive and marines manage to win. Its worth repeating, its sad :/
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    I don't understand why they linked fade to second hive, does that make any sense ?

    I have to say I'm not convinced by sc2 yet, the commentators are really bad also (expand vs. one base and the guy send his marines to die without scouting, and a banshee would have been has good as the raven in this situation). In sc1 there was also some new builds even 10 years after the release of the game :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAP29o5cNB4
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
    Oh lord Yuuki, watch 5.00 in 2nd part, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX5qtz-qskw...feature=related
    Even though JD lost, the dark swarm giving him time, fantasy having to react. Strategy and tactics, Macro and Micro. Good lord I like it!

    Later seeing the Science Vessel radiating the defilers, the scourge failing to kill the Science vessel due to fantasy's good micro. Wow. Then think of this in NS2. Magic. Sad it wont happen :(

    Anyway, good game. Considering your comments on my game i posted, i think tasteless and artosis are really good. They are old school BW players and nowadays SC2 commentators. In the SC2 community, they are considered to be among the best, if not the best.

    Regarding the game, i wasn't trying to show case perfect play from both sides, I was merely trying to make a point where new strategy are still being produced in SC2, which I think your video highlighted even better from BW. Seeing fantasy use this tank-anti air combo as apposed to SK Terran was really cool.

    But I take it u agree with me then: With the current status of NS2, and considering that they don't see to be changing the basics of the game, new strategy, which we showed each other, wont be happening. GL rushing before fade will be the melody for the rest of NS2 history.

    We will never see a marine team 2-basing trying to hold off a alien 1-base timing pushing with early tech/upgrades. We wont be seeing a marine team with a sneaky early expand vs alien poor scouting and marines getting away with it! We wont see aliens meta game switching, with aliens faking teching when marines scout, just to go for expand and canceling all upgrades just to buy those precious 30 secs! Instead we will see an asymmetric CODMW4.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    Frankly, while I would enjoy more RTS depth to the game, NS2 is first and foremost an FPS (for example, during an 18 player match, 2 people play the RTS and 16 the FPS parts). The RTS components do add a lot of value, but there are limitations as to how much RTS you can add before it starts to seriously impact the FPS.

    However, I would support this as a mod because I personally like the RTS components of NS2.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    I know there is limitations, but it doesn't mean you can't do anything to improve the strategic side of the game. Now a lot as be copied from starcraft (creep, drones, ..) but not the strategic depth sadly.

    QUOTE
    for example, during an 18 player match, 2 people play the RTS and 16 the FPS parts


    Like when the comm do a cheesy strategy and the rest of the team need to deny scout ?
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Posts: 4,983Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow mod
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Feb 19 2012, 04:03 AM) »
    Like when the comm do a cheesy strategy and the rest of the team need to deny scout ?

    Well, I am more getting at that improving the RTS depth will mostly only improve the game for a small minority of the players in any given match. However, improving the FPS will pay greater dividends.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    I disagree, the strategic side is that make the fps part good, or at least better than is others fps. Then you shoot an harvester or kill a fade, you're not only happy because you aimed right, but also because you hit the whole alien team in terms or resource and gain a strategic advantage. The RTS side is what gives meaning to what you do on the fps side, so improving depth is good overall.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Posts: 1,690Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2012
    I agree with yuuki.

    If thats not what ns2 is about then why even waste the time, just make ns:combat 2 instead.
    Currently ns2 is weak on the rts part.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
    I cant see why improving the RTS would hurt the FPS side. You still run around killing sculcs and fades with LMG and SG. You will still be able to lerk and gas them rines. Its just that while doing it, you need a strategy for your team, something that gives killing fades a purpose. The feeling when you know that aliens are doing a 1-base all in with lerks and fades, and rines are 2 basing, knowing that if rines are able to hold, they will probably win the game. Both sides know that the next 3-4 minutes, everything depends on holding this rush. I think adding this feeling will make the game more enjoyable, especially for the FPS players. Couse know when I fade, I usually know that me being dead or alive isnt that great of a deal. But if I would know that everything depends on it...

    I think they instead would complement each other and make both sides more fun. You say 2 pl play rts and 16 players play fps, I have to disagree. I would say they all should be playing an RTS/FPS game, just with different jobs.
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Posts: 276Members
    With the recent changes, I can feel my view on how the game should be coming alive. Its just a matter of time
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Posts: 1,725Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2012
    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 22 2012, 12:01 PM) »
    I cant see why improving the RTS would hurt the FPS side. You still run around killing sculcs and fades with LMG and SG. You will still be able to lerk and gas them rines. Its just that while doing it, you need a strategy for your team, something that gives killing fades a purpose. The feeling when you know that aliens are doing a 1-base all in with lerks and fades, and rines are 2 basing, knowing that if rines are able to hold, they will probably win the game. Both sides know that the next 3-4 minutes, everything depends on holding this rush. I think adding this feeling will make the game more enjoyable, especially for the FPS players. Couse know when I fade, I usually know that me being dead or alive isnt that great of a deal. But if I would know that everything depends on it...

    I agree with all of this in principle, but I don't think your suggestions are the right ones. While the NS "universe" has borrowed a lot from Starcraft, it definitely shouldn't turn into the plain rip-off you suggested in the OP. NS1 basically had everything you described in the post I quoted above, but sadly NS2 doesn't at the moment.

    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Feb 8 2012, 07:02 PM) »
    Marines should have Rocket launcher. Exploding beneath a sculc should throw it in the air, making mid air RL kills possible for rines who have played quake or TFC.

    That was a joke, right?

    QUOTE (Scrajm @ Apr 19 2012, 10:10 AM) »
    With the recent changes, I can feel my view on how the game should be coming alive. Its just a matter of time

    I don't see much of a difference with the latest version. Some things have improved, but others have gotten worse. Maybe you could elaborate on what you think is better now?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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