We all have different idiosynchrasies in the way we do things. Sometimes differences in the way we do things are more than mere preferences; and one method is actually better at accomplishing something, but it can be pretty hard to tell which is which at times.
I think you missed a very important tool; snap to vertex.
You select some geometry, then you drag it by one of its vertices and put that vertex ontop of another vertex in the map and it will snap to exactly that position.
Anything that is a placeholder for a prop probably shouldn't be welded; at least I wouldn't.
When you're greyboxing you stay very maleable if you don't weld everything toghether like that.
I don't like the way you're drawing lines ontop of lines to fill in a missing face. Spark does(or did) ###### up sometimes if you do that.
<!--quoteo(post=1891440:date=Dec 23 2011, 01:38 PM:name=nUfl0w)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nUfl0w @ Dec 23 2011, 01:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891440"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hhow important is it really to "stay on the grid"? I didn't really understand why it is that much of a problem.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's only important for the organization of the map and ease of editing only. As psykoman said, you can have some off-grid stuff without issues, but if you have your stuff aligned it'll be easier to work with it. Using a moderate sized grid (until you need more precision) helps keeping everything aligned for the most part, this also helps for texturing if you keep the original proportions, since the textures are always powers of 2.
Also, if you have a multiple selection, moving the movement origin (same with rotating) to one of the vertices (if possible, otherwise you can use <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESI2VWj8xmY" target="_blank">this</a> method) can help mitigate the off-grid problem that causes the vertices to be in positions like 1.000001 instead of just 1.
<!--quoteo(post=1891442:date=Dec 23 2011, 09:08 AM:name=pSyk0mAn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pSyk0mAn @ Dec 23 2011, 09:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It is just a cleaner mapping style to have as much as possible on the grid, which means vertices don't use float comma values. That way it is easier to modify or add geometry to the existing one, because as soon as it comes to moving or scaling you'll have trouble with the off-grid stuff to get it into exact different off-grid positions or to make seperate geometry connect exactly with other geometry ending off the grid.
That being said there are a lot of things where off-grid vertices don't matter: -Seperate geometry, like building your own pillars or segments, which you then treat like props, where vertices are bound to be off-grid, when you rotate them. -Curved geometry for the sake of having perfect curves, although the two endpieces of, let's say, a 90° curve should be on the grid, if possible, and can be used as orientation/origin for moving and scaling that curved geometry. -Rotated geometry like bends in hallways to keep the intended scale and dimensions. In these cases it always helps to have the off-grid geometry connected and share vertices up to where the end pieces of said geometry are back on the grid. That way you always have some on-grid points you can use for moving and scaling. -Endpieces of geometry like, for example, when you extrude a rotated face of a wall to create space for a prop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1891450:date=Dec 23 2011, 10:54 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Dec 23 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's only important for the organization of the map and ease of editing only. As psykoman said, you can have some off-grid stuff without issues, but if you have your stuff aligned it'll be easier to work with it. Using a moderate sized grid (until you need more precision) helps keeping everything aligned for the most part, this also helps for texturing if you keep the original proportions, since the textures are always powers of 2.
Also, if you have a multiple selection, moving the movement origin (same with rotating) to one of the vertices (if possible, otherwise you can use <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESI2VWj8xmY" target="_blank">this</a> method) can help mitigate the off-grid problem that causes the vertices to be in positions like 1.000001 instead of just 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your help. I think, since I just started working on a first map in order to learn things I wont focus to much on it. Everytime I see it I correct it, but it takes a lot of time, time I can not spend on learning other things. I really learn to appreciate your work :D Creating faces in Spark is really giving a hard time to me.... Also I haven't totally found out when something welds together and when not. Most times it does, sometimes not. A lot to learn. But it is fun :)
Another Question: Sometimes when I try to scale a line back to the grid the yellow cornes that are used to modify the scale have a dot inside. In this case I cant move the yellow square whatsoever. Is there a way to get rid of the dots. Why do they exist in the first place?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1891489:date=Dec 23 2011, 11:16 PM:name=nUfl0w)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nUfl0w @ Dec 23 2011, 11:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891489"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another Question: Sometimes when I try to scale a line back to the grid the yellow cornes that are used to modify the scale have a dot inside. In this case I cant move the yellow square whatsoever. Is there a way to get rid of the dots. Why do they exist in the first place?
Thanks :).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really use the scale tool to move individual lines. I use the move tool and edit the line by way of its vertices.
nice videos fmp! Was wondering if you were planning to cover how to build geometry in a way that makes texturing less tedious.. I'm finding it a real pain sometimes when textures dont line up properly from face to face for example in an arch (using alt+click) and i end up needing to individually tweak the angles etc. on each face :(.
I'm actually quite concerned with how you're showing people to create a hallway and doorway, especially from a graybox.
If you graybox that's fine. However you should not "re-optimize" your graybox faces and vertices if you don't know what's going on the walls or where the props are going. Especially not if you're rehashing them to have crazy triangles which will make it harder for you to look through and to then delete and re-create. You can't even build off of those and you have to completely destroy and restart making it lengthier.
Just as a quick example of how your area could end up looking due to texturing etc. I've put a screenshot below. You should focus more on just the tool in the graybox, not mapping techiques. Leave that to when you come to things in the image below, like neat facework which then links in with how to make textures work better and more seamlessly, otherwise you'll just confuse and give too much information to start with.
Image showing wall / wireframe of optimising your facework with your textures and for neatness, post-graybox just to show what I mean.
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
That should be it for the core series, unless you guys have specific requests. I don't want too many tutorials out there, it will just lead to problems with being overwhelming/too trivial.
I can't upload them to youtube however, unfortunately, because of the great length of some of the tutorials.
I'd like to see a tutorial on making some of the more common bits of geometry. The fastest way to add trims in, best way to add in a curved surface etc. I sometimes feel like I'm going about things the long way when it should be much simpler.
<!--quoteo(post=1892100:date=Dec 30 2011, 12:47 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Dec 30 2011, 12:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd like to see a tutorial on making some of the more common bits of geometry. The fastest way to add trims in, best way to add in a curved surface etc. I sometimes feel like I'm going about things the long way when it should be much simpler.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make your wall, make your floor. Copy and paste your original face, resize, place and add your trim texture.
You can also extrude lines into faces for easier trim creation. For more complex stuff see <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86FEDJgultQ" target="_blank">this</a>.
pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
I love extruding, but considering all the off-grid stuff going on in spark, extruding makes things worse, because many lines or faces aren't exactly on the grid (even when they seem to be, but the very minor floatcomma value is just rounded up/down in the editor display) and thus the direction you extrude is very slightly off leading to more off-grid vertices. It should be fine though as long as you connect extruded parts with the line tool so it's all tied together, or have overlapping geometry so you don't see tiny cracks anyway, or the extruded geometry is an end piece and doesn't need to be aligned to seperate geometry.
<!--quoteo(post=1892120:date=Dec 30 2011, 01:05 PM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Dec 30 2011, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1892120"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can also extrude lines into faces for easier trim creation. For more complex stuff see <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86FEDJgultQ" target="_blank">this</a>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read psyk0mans post with care. That's the reason I never use anything over than copy/paste and vertex manipulation. Right now, with the editor as it is, it's simpler to use less tools and make things as simple as possible.
<!--quoteo(post=1909482:date=Mar 3 2012, 06:58 PM:name=Trance420)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Trance420 @ Mar 3 2012, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909482"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i don't want a bell TV phone DAMN IT LOL<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not sure are you troll or spammer but thanks for bumping this up. Really helpful tricks on this thread and you should keep this on the first page :) Im getting into the spark editor but is it wise to do example a cave with only rock props? Will it be buggy ex. when placing structures on em and so on? Or should I make walls and add cover walls with props, is that even wise to use much props for one room?
fmponeJoin Date: 2011-07-05Member: 108086Members, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1909846:date=Mar 4 2012, 08:52 AM:name=Volccis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volccis @ Mar 4 2012, 08:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure are you troll or spammer but thanks for bumping this up. Really helpful tricks on this thread and you should keep this on the first page :) Im getting into the spark editor but is it wise to do example a cave with only rock props? Will it be buggy ex. when placing structures on em and so on? Or should I make walls and add cover walls with props, is that even wise to use much props for one room?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Floors had better be flat, for placing structures. Flat in this context doesn't mean there can be no elevation changes, but if there are elevation changes, there also needs to be areas that are relatively settled. Mineshaft demonstrates this point. Props are fine -- also study Mineshaft for examples of cave-like geometry.
<!--quoteo(post=1910011:date=Mar 5 2012, 01:50 AM:name=fmpone)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fmpone @ Mar 5 2012, 01:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1910011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Floors had better be flat, for placing structures. Flat in this context doesn't mean there can be no elevation changes, but if there are elevation changes, there also needs to be areas that are relatively settled. Mineshaft demonstrates this point. Props are fine -- also study Mineshaft for examples of cave-like geometry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the answer. After few days I think I can start to make map layout and draw it. That tip to stay on the grid is quite useful. Im not using it for all lines but it helps to make basic layout for rooms and then make something more geometric on em. Also tested to add props, lights, paints but dont know my theme yet, perhaps after few weeks :) Still much to learn but this mapping has become quite addictive :P
<!--quoteo(post=1909846:date=Mar 4 2012, 06:52 AM:name=Volccis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Volccis @ Mar 4 2012, 06:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909846"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure are you troll or spammer but thanks for bumping this up. Really helpful tricks on this thread and you should keep this on the first page :) Im getting into the spark editor but is it wise to do example a cave with only rock props? Will it be buggy ex. when placing structures on em and so on? Or should I make walls and add cover walls with props, is that even wise to use much props for one room?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
my 'troll' post were refer to "fmpone" tutorial videos on own3d.tv i'm still learning how brushworks in spark... kind of annoying compare to hammer so i can't help you out
schkorpioI can mspaintJoin Date: 2003-05-23Member: 16635Members
edited July 2012
very cool man!
what i think would be good also is some really short and very specific tutorials - as in like 2 minutes max and very focused on one thing e.g. 1. how one type of particular complicated shape. (like a sphere) 2. how to make your trim even in diagonal areas
edit : perhaps pick a really cool area or shape from a popular/official map, and then break down how to make it.
that kind of thing - stuff that might not be obvious if you are new to geometry
Comments
I think you missed a very important tool; snap to vertex.
You select some geometry, then you drag it by one of its vertices and put that vertex ontop of another vertex in the map and it will snap to exactly that position.
Anything that is a placeholder for a prop probably shouldn't be welded; at least I wouldn't.
When you're greyboxing you stay very maleable if you don't weld everything toghether like that.
I don't like the way you're drawing lines ontop of lines to fill in a missing face. Spark does(or did) ###### up sometimes if you do that.
It's only important for the organization of the map and ease of editing only. As psykoman said, you can have some off-grid stuff without issues, but if you have your stuff aligned it'll be easier to work with it. Using a moderate sized grid (until you need more precision) helps keeping everything aligned for the most part, this also helps for texturing if you keep the original proportions, since the textures are always powers of 2.
Also, if you have a multiple selection, moving the movement origin (same with rotating) to one of the vertices (if possible, otherwise you can use <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESI2VWj8xmY" target="_blank">this</a> method) can help mitigate the off-grid problem that causes the vertices to be in positions like 1.000001 instead of just 1.
That being said there are a lot of things where off-grid vertices don't matter:
-Seperate geometry, like building your own pillars or segments, which you then treat like props, where vertices are bound to be off-grid, when you rotate them.
-Curved geometry for the sake of having perfect curves, although the two endpieces of, let's say, a 90° curve should be on the grid, if possible, and can be used as orientation/origin for moving and scaling that curved geometry.
-Rotated geometry like bends in hallways to keep the intended scale and dimensions. In these cases it always helps to have the off-grid geometry connected and share vertices up to where the end pieces of said geometry are back on the grid. That way you always have some on-grid points you can use for moving and scaling.
-Endpieces of geometry like, for example, when you extrude a rotated face of a wall to create space for a prop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1891450:date=Dec 23 2011, 10:54 AM:name=Mendasp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mendasp @ Dec 23 2011, 10:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1891450"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's only important for the organization of the map and ease of editing only. As psykoman said, you can have some off-grid stuff without issues, but if you have your stuff aligned it'll be easier to work with it. Using a moderate sized grid (until you need more precision) helps keeping everything aligned for the most part, this also helps for texturing if you keep the original proportions, since the textures are always powers of 2.
Also, if you have a multiple selection, moving the movement origin (same with rotating) to one of the vertices (if possible, otherwise you can use <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESI2VWj8xmY" target="_blank">this</a> method) can help mitigate the off-grid problem that causes the vertices to be in positions like 1.000001 instead of just 1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for your help. I think, since I just started working on a first map in order to learn things I wont focus to much on it. Everytime I see it I correct it, but it takes a lot of time, time I can not spend on learning other things.
I really learn to appreciate your work :D Creating faces in Spark is really giving a hard time to me.... Also I haven't totally found out when something welds together and when not. Most times it does, sometimes not.
A lot to learn. But it is fun :)
Thanks again for all the help.
Great work fm.
Sometimes when I try to scale a line back to the grid the yellow cornes that are used to modify the scale have a dot inside. In this case I cant move the yellow square whatsoever. Is there a way to get rid of the dots. Why do they exist in the first place?
Thanks :).
Sometimes when I try to scale a line back to the grid the yellow cornes that are used to modify the scale have a dot inside. In this case I cant move the yellow square whatsoever. Is there a way to get rid of the dots. Why do they exist in the first place?
Thanks :).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't really use the scale tool to move individual lines. I use the move tool and edit the line by way of its vertices.
Was wondering if you were planning to cover how to build geometry in a way that makes texturing less tedious.. I'm finding it a real pain sometimes when textures dont line up properly from face to face for example in an arch (using alt+click) and i end up needing to individually tweak the angles etc. on each face :(.
If you graybox that's fine. However you should not "re-optimize" your graybox faces and vertices if you don't know what's going on the walls or where the props are going. Especially not if you're rehashing them to have crazy triangles which will make it harder for you to look through and to then delete and re-create. You can't even build off of those and you have to completely destroy and restart making it lengthier.
Just as a quick example of how your area could end up looking due to texturing etc. I've put a screenshot below. You should focus more on just the tool in the graybox, not mapping techiques. Leave that to when you come to things in the image below, like neat facework which then links in with how to make textures work better and more seamlessly, otherwise you'll just confuse and give too much information to start with.
Image showing wall / wireframe of optimising your facework with your textures and for neatness, post-graybox just to show what I mean.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/YbNPr.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Things to note in that image are the angles on the trims on the door way, the wall is split in to two textures and the floor with the 4 raised pieces.
<a href="http://www.own3d.tv/video/358185/NS2_Map_Tutorials__5__Lighting_and_Props_" target="_blank">http://www.own3d.tv/video/358185/NS2_Map_T...ting_and_Props_</a>
No. 6
<a href="http://www.own3d.tv/video/358217/NS2_Map_Tutorials__6__Aesthetic_Concepts_" target="_blank">http://www.own3d.tv/video/358217/NS2_Map_T...hetic_Concepts_</a>
For the complete directory:
<a href="http://www.own3d.tv/FMPONE" target="_blank">http://www.own3d.tv/FMPONE</a>
I can't upload them to youtube however, unfortunately, because of the great length of some of the tutorials.
Make your wall, make your floor. Copy and paste your original face, resize, place and add your trim texture.
There you go.
It should be fine though as long as you connect extruded parts with the line tool so it's all tied together,
or have overlapping geometry so you don't see tiny cracks anyway,
or the extruded geometry is an end piece and doesn't need to be aligned to seperate geometry.
Nice Mendasp, really helpful :)
Not sure are you troll or spammer but thanks for bumping this up. Really helpful tricks on this thread and you should keep this on the first page :) Im getting into the spark editor but is it wise to do example a cave with only rock props? Will it be buggy ex. when placing structures on em and so on? Or should I make walls and add cover walls with props, is that even wise to use much props for one room?
Floors had better be flat, for placing structures. Flat in this context doesn't mean there can be no elevation changes, but if there are elevation changes, there also needs to be areas that are relatively settled. Mineshaft demonstrates this point. Props are fine -- also study Mineshaft for examples of cave-like geometry.
Thanks for the answer. After few days I think I can start to make map layout and draw it. That tip to stay on the grid is quite useful. Im not using it for all lines but it helps to make basic layout for rooms and then make something more geometric on em. Also tested to add props, lights, paints but dont know my theme yet, perhaps after few weeks :) Still much to learn but this mapping has become quite addictive :P
my 'troll' post were refer to "fmpone" tutorial videos on own3d.tv
i'm still learning how brushworks in spark... kind of annoying compare to hammer so i can't help you out
what i think would be good also is some really short and very specific tutorials - as in like 2 minutes max and very focused on one thing
e.g.
1. how one type of particular complicated shape. (like a sphere)
2. how to make your trim even in diagonal areas
edit : perhaps pick a really cool area or shape from a popular/official map, and then break down how to make it.
that kind of thing - stuff that might not be obvious if you are new to geometry
Thanks mates!