Alien "lock on" ability
Chris0132
Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
<div class="IPBDescription">making melee less of a melee</div>So I have this recurring problem as aliens. I can't hit anything. Because trying to track a marine when I'm flying past it at mach 6 to avoid gunfire is hard. Here is a suggestion to make it less hard.
Aliens should be able to press a button to 'lock' their view to a marine. Now, this doesn't just automatically centre their view to the marine, rather it uses the marine's position as a reference frame. If they are looking slightly to the left of a marine and hit the button, their view will stay slightly to the left of the marine when they, or the marine, moves around. The view will adjust to keep this the case. The closest analog I can think of is the aiming in GTA 4, the aim locks to the person, but you can adjust the crosshair relative to the lockon, so you can aim up from the lock to track the head, or left to track the arm, that sort of thing.
Here is a picture in case this is confusing, in the picture the egg is the lock on target, the first row is without lockon, the second row is with, the diagram shows the position of the entities and the view in each frame from the top down:
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/m7ufkx.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now, while in the lock on mode, the player can look around as normal, but the view will still track the marine. If they look straight at the marine they will be able to track them perfectly when in melee, but they can still look away if they need to. Pressing the key again would unlock the view. The view also unlocks if the marine goes out of sight for a few seconds, to prevent it being used as wallhacks. You can use the same duration is the minimap spotting system does.
I think this should be a feature because melee is a vital part of alien functionality, it's like how marines get a crosshair, because aiming their gun is a vital part of their functionality. Crosshairs are not particularly useful to aliens, but this sort of thing would allow them to hit in melee very reliably. It would also potentially mean you could get rid of things like backspeed slowdown for marines, as the whole point of that is to compensate for crappy alien melee ability. It'd also solve marine bunnyhopping, I would have thought, by making skulks automatically aim up to bite marines who jump.
Naturally you can make specific changes, like I think fade blink should unlock when you activate it and relock when you come out of blink, you can also add a degree of tracking speed limitation to it, to prevent aliens from instantly 180ing when they go past marines if you like. You could also remove it from lerks or other ranged abilities on aliens as it might be a bit overpowered there.
In before "WTF AIMBOT STUPID CASUAL"
Aliens should be able to press a button to 'lock' their view to a marine. Now, this doesn't just automatically centre their view to the marine, rather it uses the marine's position as a reference frame. If they are looking slightly to the left of a marine and hit the button, their view will stay slightly to the left of the marine when they, or the marine, moves around. The view will adjust to keep this the case. The closest analog I can think of is the aiming in GTA 4, the aim locks to the person, but you can adjust the crosshair relative to the lockon, so you can aim up from the lock to track the head, or left to track the arm, that sort of thing.
Here is a picture in case this is confusing, in the picture the egg is the lock on target, the first row is without lockon, the second row is with, the diagram shows the position of the entities and the view in each frame from the top down:
<img src="http://i43.tinypic.com/m7ufkx.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Now, while in the lock on mode, the player can look around as normal, but the view will still track the marine. If they look straight at the marine they will be able to track them perfectly when in melee, but they can still look away if they need to. Pressing the key again would unlock the view. The view also unlocks if the marine goes out of sight for a few seconds, to prevent it being used as wallhacks. You can use the same duration is the minimap spotting system does.
I think this should be a feature because melee is a vital part of alien functionality, it's like how marines get a crosshair, because aiming their gun is a vital part of their functionality. Crosshairs are not particularly useful to aliens, but this sort of thing would allow them to hit in melee very reliably. It would also potentially mean you could get rid of things like backspeed slowdown for marines, as the whole point of that is to compensate for crappy alien melee ability. It'd also solve marine bunnyhopping, I would have thought, by making skulks automatically aim up to bite marines who jump.
Naturally you can make specific changes, like I think fade blink should unlock when you activate it and relock when you come out of blink, you can also add a degree of tracking speed limitation to it, to prevent aliens from instantly 180ing when they go past marines if you like. You could also remove it from lerks or other ranged abilities on aliens as it might be a bit overpowered there.
In before "WTF AIMBOT STUPID CASUAL"
Comments
Actually, I kind of like this. It would take a degree of randomness out of melee, and I imagine Skulk health could be lowered a bit to compensate for their more reliable attack.
It removes the skill of being an alien.
It removes the skill of being an alien.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am just going to wait until your finish editing your post before I agree with it...
I'm done.
Now, in real life, I have things like peripheral vision, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception" target="_blank">proprioception</a>, general spatial awareness, the ability to actually control my limbs and not just flail at a point directly in front of me, and a better than 30fps framerate.
All of these mean that in real life, I would be quite capable of tracking the position of a person right next to me, ingame however, due to the limitations of looking through a tiny monitor, using a mouse and keyboard, and rendering on a video card, doing this relatively simple task varies between difficult and impossible.
Now, most of the time, a good game makes things easier than real life, you are not required to maintain your gun in NS2, or account for aim sway, or aim down the sights, or remember how much ammo you have, or manually operate each leg in order to move etc etc. This is because everyone understands that these things aren't fun, and we can do things like walk in real life without thinking about them much, it's sort of instinctual, automatic, the game reflects this by automating the process.
Having aliens be restricted to mouse and keyboard control to track targets in melee is kind of stupid, because it's not a skill, it's a control limitation. It's making something harder than it is in real life because of the controls, I'm not fighting the marine, I'm fighting the controls to perform a task that I should be able to perform automatically.
This isn't the alien aiming a gun, this is the alien being able to control their own body and do something that humans do by instinct, which is track threats.
My personal suggestion would be to change how the marines function.
First off:
1.Give Marines a sprint
---make it faster than skulks normal run speed, but half the speed of a skulks leap attack.
---while sprinting, a marine can not fire a gun
2.Increase recoil for marines while strafing
---This gives them less incentive to run around frantically while racking up skills
---Now they can run around to find a better position, then stop and aim because...
3. Decrease recoil while standing still and crouching
---So, now, like CS, crouching significantly increases aim, providing incentive to stand still, but making it more dangerous
4. Possibly add a *crit* effect for crouching
---a "headshot" if you will. While crouching, receive a % increase to deal double damage depending on weapon type.
Why all this? Because the idea of a skulk, and crawling on walls is to surprise your enemy. If marines can book through hallways and look up and down at every crevice while strafing around, it makes it almost impossible to surprise them. Even if you DO get 1 bite off, they can flip around and avoid you while unleashing hell in the form of bullets to your face.
The idea wouldn't reduce mobility, but it would provide incentive to remain stationary in a battle. Crouching would essentially act as "setting up a turret." This means skulks, if they happen to find a marine, could attack from above of behind and deal some damage.
As it is now, its almost impossible for a skulk to ambush a marine due to how much they move around.
I get close to the marine and try to aim at it, then bite when I am.
Trouble is, the marine is only onscreen for a few frames, and it's kind of hard to tell where it even went.
The problem is just as pronounced for marines in close combat, I can't keep track of aliens either. But that at least makes some sense as the point of marines is to kill aliens before they get close enough to kill them.
It is literally mechanical limitations of the game that make it difficult, and make it much more difficult than aiming as marine. I don't mind the game being challenging but I don't like when that challenge is much harder for one side, or when it's due to limitations of the medium.
To me, the bit of alien gameplay that works is the getting close. That could be expanded on significantly and is already difficult. I don't think they need to make the actual landing of hits even harder than getting into position to attack.
Do you have some sort of ability I don't that lets you teleport right next to marines so that you never have to worry about getting close to them?
Because if so please share.
This isn't just me either, it's a general thing with a lot of alien players, aliens miss a lot more than they hit, which for a melee side seems a bit silly.
I don't have really bad fps, even if I had sixty FPS it wouldn't help much, it's still a fraction of a second glimpse of the marine and then gone.
It's simply a problem endemic to having aliens which move really fast fightng marines who keep trying to dodge at point blank range. It's why most games don't try to do first person melee combat, because it just doesn't work very well at high speed. The only games that have managed to make it work that I know of are the elder scrolls series, because enemies hardly move, and dark messiah of might and magic, because it's actually really well put together and it's a matter of precise timing and positioning rather than 'land as many hits as possible on the enemy in a short space of time while dodging bullets'.
I see three potential solutions.
1. Slow down melee combat immensely. Obviously not desirable nor practical.
2. Move melee combat to third person. Again, not really practical and would introduce lots of other problems when controlling something like a skulk which doesn't have a wide attack angle. Probably wouldn't work in the tight spaces NS2 takes place in.
3. Introduce some sort of aim or tracking assistance so that players can actually make sense of melee combat. Hence this suggestion.
It is most certainly not good enough as is.
Because if so please share.
This isn't just me either, it's a general thing with a lot of alien players, aliens miss a lot more than they hit, which for a melee side seems a bit silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is all down to the skill of movement, aiming and timing.
To get close to a good marine you have to give him a tough time aiming at you, or simply surprice him.
Use walls and cielings while trying to get close to him, this make make you alot harder to hit. Even for the best marines out there.
Every time you change a surface, your model adjusts to the new surface, keep that in mind when you play.
Pre-188 that was a problem, as your model would instantly change to fit the new surface, now it has a transition. I'm not saying that it's perfect in 188, but definitly alot better.
Always try to imagine the first person view of the marine as you walk into his view, walking straight at him will get you killed very fast.
Using walls, jumping off them, crawling on cielings and jumping down on marines, helps you alot with closing distance. Also, simply jumping can help you with that.
Keeping your aim at them is also a skill you need to aquire, and it is a hard skill to master, cause marines simply won't stand still while you chew on them. That would be stupid from the marines perspective, as they would get slaughtered like pigs.
Even when you get close to them, you still have to move around the marine to make him lose track of you, or you will simply get shot.
Also, when you do get close to a marine, try looking 45 degrees up, this way you don't lose track of him as easily when he jumps, his ancles would still be in your aim.
It was exactly the same in NS1, although of course in NS1, it was 'balanced' by making later alien lifeforms ridiculously overpowered.
As NS2 seems to be taking the sensible approach of actually balancing every class, the skulks need to be effective in combat. I shouldn't regard skulks as a waste of time as aliens and amusing cannon fodder as marines. For that to be the case they need to be able to hit in melee.
Maybe you should read again what you wrote some days ago, it's really looks like bad fps to me :
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the moment all I can say is that it looks pretty, but I can't aim because my view slideshows from one frame to the next, and then decides to render about twenty of them in perfect sequence before taking a break and doing the next frame in a second or two. I can't find anything to aim AT because everything teleports around constantly, and even if I could do both those things, the amount of problems I have connecting to a server without blackscreeening or the game suffering some completely gamebreaking bug would still be enough to render the game barely playable.
I just cannot give any constructive comments on a game I can't play. You need to fix the lag and fps, otherwise what I have sitting on my hard drive is kind of useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you're right about this one :
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I just cannot give any constructive comments on a game I can't play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think, personally, they could fix this problem by slightly increasing the range on the skulks bite attack.
Or, by distorting the view when in skulk form.
Or, as I suggested earlier, by slowing down marines.
Or, by distorting the view when in skulk form.
Or, as I suggested earlier, by slowing down marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bite range is fine.
Press F for alien flashlight, helps alot with spotting marines and keeping them in sight.
Slowing down on damage has already been tested and rejected.
However, I don't feel a complete auto aim is the proper solution; it is way to far of a correction in the other direction. Instead, how about having the camera stay focused within the general direction of the marine, but not constantly perfect. If the marine is to the left of me, my camera will move to the left keeping him at the very edge of my screen but not centered enough to land hits.This would allow aliens to always have an idea of the direction of their enemy making it easier to keep him centered without completely removing aiming. Think of it as a built in peripheral vision system. Like the forum poster said, I don't have to always look towards an object to know what direction it is moving in.
You want to make this a reasonable idea, have lock on simply change the target to a different color, say there are 3 rines coming down the hallway, you dont want to bite each one once and have 3 shooting at you, you want to bite 1 of them 3 times and have only 2 shooting at you and increase your chances of getting them all by 33%.
so sure add a priory function where you can designate a rine a priority so you can keep track but dont take control of the game out of the players hands or change the way you move mid game play. This is akin to playing with training wheels helps at first but you will never really learn, trial by fire after all its only a game.
However, I don't feel a complete auto aim is the proper solution; it is way to far of a correction in the other direction. Instead, how about having the camera stay focused within the general direction of the marine, but not constantly perfect. If the marine is to the left of me, my camera will move to the left keeping him at the very edge of my screen but not centered enough to land hits.This would allow aliens to always have an idea of the direction of their enemy making it easier to keep him centered without completely removing aiming. Think of it as a built in peripheral vision system. Like the forum poster said, I don't have to always look towards an object to know what direction it is moving in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-1
A lock on system like this would still take away 90% of the skill out of being a skulk.
It was not a problem in ns1 as previously stated.
And when ns2 get better frames, it won't be a problem there either.
All it takes is practice.
Edit: +1 to the post above
However, I don't feel a complete auto aim is the proper solution; it is way to far of a correction in the other direction. Instead, how about having the camera stay focused within the general direction of the marine, but not constantly perfect. If the marine is to the left of me, my camera will move to the left keeping him at the very edge of my screen but not centered enough to land hits.This would allow aliens to always have an idea of the direction of their enemy making it easier to keep him centered without completely removing aiming. Think of it as a built in peripheral vision system. Like the forum poster said, I don't have to always look towards an object to know what direction it is moving in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That sounds like it'd work, as long as it keeps the marine on screen it solves most of the problem which is that I have no idea where it went after it disappeared.
<!--quoteo(post=1887710:date=Nov 30 2011, 09:31 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Nov 30 2011, 09:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887710"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If any of this ever makes it to the game i pray i can turn it off.... with some practice timing and straifing the only thing this will accomplish is to limit the players who use it to a basic skill level and prevent them from advancing and taking full advantage of their agility... You never want to be "locked on" to any one thing you want to be aware of your surroundings the last thing you need is to be unable to see the situation around you developing becasue you cant look away. you never know when you may be able to use one rine to shield you from another...
You want to make this a reasonable idea, have lock on simply change the target to a different color, say there are 3 rines coming down the hallway, you dont want to bite each one once and have 3 shooting at you, you want to bite 1 of them 3 times and have only 2 shooting at you and increase your chances of getting them all by 33%.
so sure add a priory function where you can designate a rine a priority so you can keep track but dont take control of the game out of the players hands or change the way you move mid game play. This is akin to playing with training wheels helps at first but you will never really learn, trial by fire after all its only a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Solution: Don't press the lockon key.
'It's only a game' is exactly why I have no desire to put however many hundreds of hours it would take to actually learn to do this. I don't really care if I'm not the best skulk in the game, I go out of my way to avoid playing as such a worthless class, but sometimes I have to, and when I have to it'd be nice if the game didn't make it almost impossible to contribute.
Solution: Concentrate on your targets, follow their movement, you are faster than them.
<!--quoteo(post=1887895:date=Dec 2 2011, 06:42 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 2 2011, 06:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1887895"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution: Don't press the lockon key.
'It's only a game' is exactly why I have no desire to put however many hundreds of hours it would take to actually learn to do this. I don't really care if I'm not the best skulk in the game, I go out of my way to avoid playing as such a worthless class, but sometimes I have to, and when I have to it'd be nice if the game didn't make it almost impossible to contribute.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hundreds of hours learning how to keep your aim at marines, while timing bites?
It's not that hard, cmon.. I mean, "Impossible to contribute"? That comment is just out of place.
Seems like you just want a default aimbot because you're bad at aiming.
Make sure your sensivity is high enough to make at least 180 degree turns, with one mouse strafe.
My entire point of contention with the current alien gameplay is that tracking targets at point blank with point blank weapons is far harder than tracking them at range with guns.
The point of marines is that you stay alert and shoot them before they get close, because once they get close you are supposed to be at a disadvantage. At range you can hit them before they hit you and their dodging is less effective, at point blank they should do more damage and hit you easier than you can hit them.
The problem is that the skulk doesn't have any of that, their bites are not significantly faster than the rifle in terms of DPS, they have just has hard a time tracking marines as marines do them when in melee, and they have less health.
Skulks are ENTIRELY inferior to basic marines in close combat. They need something to make them competitive. Their only advantage right now is that they can sometimes drop onto marines when they aren't expecting it, which can get them a free hit, but beyond that their weapons are worse, their health is worse, their mobility is better but they also need to move more, so it isn't much of an advantage, and they are no better in melee than a basic marine.
I mean, fades work, fades have a lot of health and can get close with their teleport, which means they are sort of evenly matched in terms of ability to hit, but they have more health and do lots of damage, so they're better than marines in close combat, skulks just aren't.
If you buff the DPS it'd make skulks really annoying to fight as they would just one shot you, if you buff the skulk health then it just turns into a crappier fade without teleport, while giving them the ability to actually track targets in melee, that'd keep their playstyle the same, it preserves a lot of what the skulk is, while giving them one single advantage over marines, which they desperately need.
As it stands, skulks are useless for fighting marines, they are good at harassing supply lines, because that doesn't involve fighting, but when you actually have to fight marines head on, because they're invading your base, skulks suck at that, and they're all the aliens have until they get hive 2. This isn't just me, this is what I constantly observe whenever I tell skulks to fight marines head on as commander, they just can't do it because there's no way for them to actually go about it. And you can't say 'then don't fight them head on' because that means never contesting any ground the marines attack. If the marines come into a room and start shooting it up, you need to just go at them, try dodging, then bite them when you get close enough. Currently, even if the skulks do get close, they have so much trouble hitting marines in close combat that they just die before they even manage to kill them. It sort of works if you imagine a skulk and a marine fighting in a completely detached void with both able to play to their strengths, but it just doesn't work when you put it in a real game situation.
My entire point of contention with the current alien gameplay is that tracking targets at point blank with point blank weapons is far harder than tracking them at range with guns.
The point of marines is that you stay alert and shoot them before they get close, because once they get close you are supposed to be at a disadvantage. At range you can hit them before they hit you and their dodging is less effective, at point blank they should do more damage and hit you easier than you can hit them.
The problem is that the skulk doesn't have any of that, their bites are not significantly faster than the rifle in terms of DPS, they have just has hard a time tracking marines as marines do them when in melee, and they have less health.
Skulks are ENTIRELY inferior to basic marines in close combat. They need something to make them competitive. Their only advantage right now is that they can sometimes drop onto marines when they aren't expecting it, which can get them a free hit, but beyond that their weapons are worse, their health is worse, their mobility is better but they also need to move more, so it isn't much of an advantage, and they are no better in melee than a basic marine.
I mean, fades work, fades have a lot of health and can get close with their teleport, which means they are sort of evenly matched in terms of ability to hit, but they have more health and do lots of damage, so they're better than marines in close combat, skulks just aren't.
If you buff the DPS it'd make skulks really annoying to fight as they would just one shot you, if you buff the skulk health then it just turns into a crappier fade without teleport, while giving them the ability to actually track targets in melee, that'd keep their playstyle the same, it preserves a lot of what the skulk is, while giving them one single advantage over marines, which they desperately need.
As it stands, skulks are useless for fighting marines, they are good at harassing supply lines, because that doesn't involve fighting, but when you actually have to fight marines head on, because they're invading your base, skulks suck at that, and they're all the aliens have until they get hive 2. This isn't just me, this is what I constantly observe whenever I tell skulks to fight marines head on as commander, they just can't do it because there's no way for them to actually go about it. And you can't say 'then don't fight them head on' because that means never contesting any ground the marines attack. If the marines come into a room and start shooting it up, you need to just go at them, try dodging, then bite them when you get close enough. Currently, even if the skulks do get close, they have so much trouble hitting marines in close combat that they just die before they even manage to kill them. It sort of works if you imagine a skulk and a marine fighting in a completely detached void with both able to play to their strengths, but it just doesn't work when you put it in a real game situation.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines have to stay alert, or they will die when aliens get close, not all aliens miss 100% of their bites.
I agree that skulks are pretty slow and weak right now, but that is no reason to put autoaim in the game.
More upgrades are coming, celerity should make aliens faster.
It's the basic part of playing a FPS melee side, it requires a bit of skill to land every hit, it's just something you have to get used to.
It's the same with aiming on the marine side, you may not hit with every bullet.
The whole reason marine have guns and use them at range is because fighting an alien up close is chaotic and unpredictable, but aliens have to fight using the same mouse, keyboard, aiming and timing mechanics as a marine with a shotgun does. Aliens should be BETTER in melee than marines, they should be well suited by their very nature to fighting in melee, not forced to perform the same chaotic, hard to follow, confusing feats of aiming that marines do when forced to fight in melee.
As it stands, marines get a whole game element based around not fighting in melee, their entire play is based around not fighting in melee because it's hard, then if that fails, they fight in melee.
Aliens, they don't get the first bit, they have to go straight to what is for marines, a last ditch effort to avoid dying.
That ISN'T good, that makes fighting far harder for basic aliens than it is for marines. Unless you plan to give all the aliens fade-like HP and damage, you need to give them some advantage when actually fighting in melee, speed isn't going to help, speed just makes it harder still to track targets, easier to overshoot, harder to control. The problem is not getting close, that mechanic can be changed as neccesary, there's lots of stuff you can do to help aliens get close, the problem is that once they are close, they have to fight against bad controls and situational awareness to do anything.