Nano Shield, Beacon

swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2012 in Ideas and Suggestions
Building energy doesn't scale with resource situation
I like the new addition of the Nano Shield, it adds more for the commander to do, and it helps keeping marines alive at crutial times.
Although I think the ability is too powerful compared to it's cost. It has no reliance on the teams current resource situation.
Same problem as Distress Beacon actually, although marines need to expand to get more of it. Imo beacon should cost 10 team res.
I think making Nano Shield cost 5 personal res for the comm, and displaying it in the Assist menu would be a great option.
This would make it more of a trade off to use these abilities, instead of just being "free" abilities that are just available for you to use as much as possible.
Also, having Distress Beacon cost observatory energy makes it possible to spam observatories and have infinite beacon.
The alien team should be able to get the marine resources down and then go for the base.
And marines would not be able to beacon because of no resource flow. (alá NS1)
This would also make an early obs more viable.
As there goes some time before you can afford your first beacon, even if you build the obs at game start.
With this change you would always be able to beacon if you save 10 res, not worrying that you use too much of the energy on scans.
This would also solve the silly tactic of hiding observatories and beaconing all marines there for almost no cost.
10 res compared with phase gates. 45res for tech and two PGs and +10res for obs. So it's 10res vs 55res for basicly the same thing, teleporting marines.
At the moment, all energy bases abilities could be changed to just have a cooldown instead, which is not very interesting.

I would like to see all of the current energy pools converted into one of the two resource pools.
This would reduce alot of the spam we see in the game currently, as people would have to use it wisely, or waste their resources.
My suggested cost changes:
Distress beacon - 10 team res
Scan - 2 personal res
Nano Shield - 3 personal res
Alien chamber abilities(fury, umbra, cloak) - 3 personal res
Cysts - 3 personal res
Drifters - 2 personal res
Numbers could be tweaked for balance.

With these changes you will also force the alien commander to use personal resources, just like the marine commander.
That will result in less hydras on the field, or less lifeforms. Which is a balance issue as well.
Post edited by Unknown User on

NS2 6v6 Gathers
QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
«13

Comments

  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Posts: 585Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 28 2011, 01:44 AM) »
    I like the new addition of the Nano Shield, it adds more for the commander to do, and it helps keeping marines alive at crutial times.
    Although I think the ability is too powerful compared to it's cost. It has no reliance on the teams current resource situation.
    Same problem as Distress Beacon actually, although marines need to expand to get more of it. Imo beacon should cost 10 team res.
    I think making Nano Shield cost 2 personal res for the comm, and displaying it in the Assist menu would be a great option.
    This would it more of a trade off to use these abilities, instead of just being "free" abilities that are just available for you to use as much as possible.
    Also, having Distress Beacon cost observatory energy makes it possible to spam observatories and have infinite beacon.
    The alien team should be able to get the marine resources down and then go for the base. And marines would not be able to beacon because of no resource flow. (alá NS1)
    This would also make an early obs more viable, as there goes some time before you can afford your first beacon, even if you build the obs at game start. With this change you would always be able to beacon if you save 10 res, not worrying that you use too much of the energy on scans.
    This would also solve the silly tactic of hiding observatories and beaconing all marines there for almost no cost.
    10 res compared with phase gates. 45res for tech and the PGs and +10res for obs. So it's 10res vs 55res for basicly the same thing, teleporting marines.

    I agree.
    The way how nano shield and distress beacons are divided to a buildings and having their own resource pools doesn't force the marine team to do any choices. Without choices there is no strategy, just spam. The more abilities you use the better. There's a choice using scan or distress beacon. But then again you can just build a second obs and you're safe for a lot of beacons and scans. I hope this problem exists only because the game is still missing a lot of content, but a finished game with all skills using different resource pools would be just dull. The same problem is evident with the aliens too. All crags, whips, shades, etc. have their own energy pool. Spam forever!
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    It'd make more sense to tie all assist powers to command chair energy.

    I mean, it's a structure with a hard limit on placement numbers, and you can't spend the energy on anything else, thereby simultaneously encouraging the use of assist powers while preventing spam.

    It also gives you good reasons to place multiple CCs, which you currently don't have.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Posts: 585Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2011, 02:01 AM) »
    It also gives you good reasons to place multiple CCs, which you currently don't have.

    In my opinion CCs are the most underrated marine building. In Summit i'd spend my res on 3 CCs rather than 6 turrets anytime.
  • SmasherSmasher Join Date: 2005-03-06 Member: 43732Posts: 268Members
    I agree with OP
    TheMarker
  • _Thresh__Thresh_ Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Posts: 380Members
    edited November 2011
    Agree with OP. Com strategy is anemic after the removal of weapons and support from t.res purchase options; all-but gutting some of the core strategic tradeoffs of NS1.

    Moreover tying the obs to t.res might allow for some more stealth and ninja options (which are lacking)- e.g. offensive beacons.

    Edit: If "energy" is being preferenced to prevent spam, a "cool-down" mechanic within each building would have the same affect, while still allowing for strategic tradeoffs within a t.res economy.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2011, 12:01 AM) »
    It'd make more sense to tie all assist powers to command chair energy.

    I mean, it's a structure with a hard limit on placement numbers, and you can't spend the energy on anything else, thereby simultaneously encouraging the use of assist powers while preventing spam.

    It also gives you good reasons to place multiple CCs, which you currently don't have.

    I don't think this is the best solution, it would still not scale with the resource flow.
    Instead, making it cost resources, would make it a real trade off.
    You still got reasons for putting down more CCs.
    Deny aliens from dropping a hive, and make it less viable to rush a CC for the aliens.
    After the health nerf for CCs and Hives, this is essential.

    QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 27 2011, 11:51 PM) »
    I agree.
    The way how nano shield and distress beacons are divided to a buildings and having their own resource pools doesn't force the marine team to do any choices. Without choices there is no strategy, just spam. The more abilities you use the better. There's a choice using scan or distress beacon. But then again you can just build a second obs and you're safe for a lot of beacons and scans. I hope this problem exists only because the game is still missing a lot of content, but a finished game with all skills using different resource pools would be just dull. The same problem is evident with the aliens too. All crags, whips, shades, etc. have their own energy pool. Spam forever!

    I totally agree, in my opinion all the abilities of the chambers should cost the alien commander personal resources. As that is his way of supporting the alien team. That would also solve the problem with alien commander not having anything to use personal res on.

    QUOTE (_Thresh_ @ Nov 28 2011, 12:25 AM) »
    Com strategy is anemic after the removal of weapons and support from t.res purchase options; all-but gutting some of the core strategic tradeoffs of NS1.

    Moreover tying the obs to team res might allow for some more stealth and ninja options- e.g. offensive beacons- which are sorrily lacking also.

    The forward beacon tactic is very cheap atm., and easily executed if you find a good hiding spot for the obs.
    This change would make it twice as costly to do, but still a viable strategy if you can't afford phase gates.
    And actually make it even more viable, because you would be able to beacon as soon as the forward obs goes up, if you got the res.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Posts: 610Members
    Its not necessarily bad to have them energy based, but yes there does need to be a more meaningful choice. Whether that be something like adding in a chrono boost style mechanic that you could also use on RTs for increased income or something else not shamelessly ripped from sc. Putting all of abilities on the CC and using the same energy pool is a very good idea. In the current implementation of the game proper incentives for the marines to take map control would be a good thing.

    While I agree with your general sentiment of allowing teams to convert economic advantage into tangible combat bonuses, I also agree with keeping the most critical of them energy based. It stops slippery slope getting too far out of control (for both winning and losing) and if it were all tied to CC then the extra diversity added at a strategical level could be quite nice. You'd have to plan to take tech points as well as RTs (current practice of using CCs just to block hives is dumb and needs to be killed off by throttling income levels).
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (Zeikko @ Nov 27 2011, 11:17 PM) »
    In my opinion CCs are the most underrated marine building. In Summit i'd spend my res on 3 CCs rather than 6 turrets anytime.


    ehh, I guess if you've got nothing else to build, but they only serve as a meat shield/redundant backup. There's no active benefit to placing them.

    Personally I'd say a robotics factory is a better choice as having one can make a base much more survivable by letting you spawn macs there, and it also cuts down on arc response time, it also is huge and tough much like the CC, so it does everything the CC does really.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 27 2011, 11:34 PM) »
    I don't think this is the best solution, it would still not scale with the resource flow.


    That's the entire point. Your entire functionality as commander is linked to resource flow, you don't need more things competing for resources, especially not things that your players on the field directly need.

    I should not have to think 'well I'd love to drop you some stuff but I need my resources for other things' or 'well I have quite a bit of ground, but my outying resource towers are going down, WELP GUESS I'M COMPLETELY USELESS NOW'.

    Having them tied to CCs means that CCs become a resource, as it stands the only real reason to take a large room is to deny aliens the hive location, in terms of actually benefitting the marines, well it's big, hard to defend, far away from your base, and gets you one res tower. It's more beneficial to take ventilation than it is to take data core. You could get most of the benefits of having data core by putting an extractor down and a turret looking at the tech point, whereas ventilation is easier to defend and is more likely to get you a steady income throughout the game.

    If CCs give you access to more support powers, you have a good reason to capture more tech points, because capturing a second tech point effectively doubles your support capacity, and that's a major boost. It helps unify tech points across marines and aliens too, currently aliens are useless with H1 and amazingly good with H2, but marines kinda work the same with one tech point as they do with 3, as long as they have res income.

    I think the game would work a lot better if both sides needed to build multiple bases.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 28 2011, 02:19 AM) »
    Its not necessarily bad to have them energy based, but yes there does need to be a more meaningful choice. Whether that be something like adding in a chrono boost style mechanic that you could also use on RTs for increased income or something else not shamelessly ripped from sc. Putting all of abilities on the CC and using the same energy pool is a very good idea. In the current implementation of the game proper incentives for the marines to take map control would be a good thing.

    While I agree with your general sentiment of allowing teams to convert economic advantage into tangible combat bonuses, I also agree with keeping the most critical of them energy based. It stops slippery slope getting too far out of control (for both winning and losing) and if it were all tied to CC then the extra diversity added at a strategical level could be quite nice. You'd have to plan to take tech points as well as RTs (current practice of using CCs just to block hives is dumb and needs to be killed off by throttling income levels).

    I really feel that building energy is a bad design decision.
    It diverts from the actual game of resources. And causes alot less trade-offs with your resources.
    Tieing all the assists to the CC energy would not make this any better, only worse.
    With more resources, you should have more assists, imo.
    The personal res have much better potential for commanders, than energy does. Simply because you need map control to get more of it.
    I agree that CCs need another purpose of placement, and I thought of an idea;
    Make CCs give a small multiplier on the resource income for marines.
    That would make a trade-off where sometimes it would be better to get a new CC instead of another Extractor.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    edited November 2011
    What exactly are resources other than building energy without a cap?

    You place a building, you get money from it, you spend the money to get stuff, then more money appears.

    The only difference between building energy and resources is that building energy also has a cap, which goes up or down depending on how many buildings you have, whereas resources only have an income rate.

    RTs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs with energy income are identical to RTs, the key difference is that CCs have DIFFERENT locations from RTs, so putting importance on both energy and res puts emphasis on two different types of map control.

    Pres and Tres on the other hand both come from RTs, so the difference between them is minimal. If you have lots of RTs you get all of your buildings and all of your support powers. You get everything from RTs as marines.

    Aliens on the other hand require RTs for funding lifeforms and upgrades, but they ALSO need hives, which give them more tech. Two key parts of their power are tied to two different key locations on the levels, and so their gameplay tends to be much more strategcally interesting. I need to get some RTs, but I also need to plan to get more hives, because hives are more important than RTs, but I need RTs in order to get hives.

    Whereas marines are much more simple, get RTs, research everything, win game.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2011, 02:50 AM) »
    What exactly are resources other than building energy without a cap?

    You place a building, you get money from it, you spend the money to get stuff, then more money appears.

    The only difference between building energy and resources is that building energy also has a cap, which goes up or down depending on how many buildings you have, whereas resources only have an income rate.

    RTs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs with energy income are identical to RTs, the key difference is that CCs have DIFFERENT locations from RTs, so putting importance on both energy and res puts emphasis on two different types of map control.

    Pres and Tres on the other hand both come from RTs, so the difference between them is minimal. If you have lots of RTs you get all of your buildings and all of your support powers. You get everything from RTs as marines.

    Aliens on the other hand require RTs for funding lifeforms and upgrades, but they ALSO need hives, which give them more tech. Two key parts of their power are tied to two different key locations on the levels, and so their gameplay tends to be much more strategcally interesting. I need to get some RTs, but I also need to plan to get more hives, because hives are more important than RTs, but I need RTs in order to get hives.

    Whereas marines are much more simple, get RTs, research everything, win game.

    You're totally wrong here.
    Resources != Building energy.
    All lines in your post are inaccurate, and are very untrue.
    The importance of map control revolves alot around the resources.
    Making stuff not require resources is a bad game design.
    It is better to have a resource system instead of an energy system, the energy system makes the game "spammable" in alot of ways.
    Where do you see a tech point without a resource node right next to it? Cause I have a hard time finding such a spot.
    Having both energy and resources don't give any depth to the game at all, and only leads to spamming certain buildings for more energy.
    Instead of worrying about what this game is actually about; RESOURCES.
    The difference between Tres and Pres is there, as you don't use them for the same things. Tres is for expanding/teching, where Pres is for support/weapons/lifeforms.
    We don't need another type of RT with another type of resources, that's what you're actually asking for the CC to be.
    "Aliens on the other hand..."? Last time I checked marines also use RTs for funding their expansion/tech/weapons.
    It is exactly the same for both teams, and I don't really see where you are getting all this nonsense from.

    To me it just seems like you're posting, just to oppose the suggestion?
    Trollpost is übertrolling.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • MuYeahMuYeah Join Date: 2006-12-26 Member: 59261Posts: 610Members
    edited November 2011
    Hmm. It's an interesting topic. My first thought is to agree with you swalk, but that could be because right now we're sort of swimming in res income because the numbers are completely out of whack wrt balance. I must admit I quite like the idea of needing a mix of tech points and RTs as marines and by keeping energy as a '3rd resource' linked only to the CC you'd increase the range of viable strategies.

    There would be a baseline rate of use for all energy linked abilities that all teams would have, adding stability to marine strategy planning and removing some of the frustration of not being able to use your abilities when on low res or saving for an upgrade. The problem with energy comes when therea little choice of what to spend it on and having a high cap, which doesnt punish bad commanders.

    But to fix the problems you identified with spending resources I'd think a simple re-adjustment of income rate to spending rate of medpacks/ammo and maybe the addition of catpacks and MAC mines to the Pres pool would suffice.

    Basically, have a resource linked with techpoints that gives one theme of temp buffs and another linked with RTs that gives another. The trick in balancing it and making them interesting is having the necessary baseline usage of them scale with the opposing team's tech level but allowing you to rush for one type to pull off some sort of preplanned strat while also keeping a low enough income rate for each that the choices of which to use and when actually mean something. Obviously with the assumption that a mechanism exists for you to stockpile enough of each resource type that you can convert an overwhelming dominance in one area (tech point control/res tower control/offensive capability/defensive capability) into any of the others. That is the satisying part and would come with having appropriate comm abilities using each resource.

    Edit: to clarify, youd have to unlock the energy using abilities with the appropriate tech structure and have a maximum energy cap of maybe 3 uses of any combination of abilities perCC
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • _Thresh__Thresh_ Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Posts: 380Members
    If you want to bring tech points into it, have them affect a cool-down timer on com abilities.

    There is no need to create two economies.

    A parallel energy economy will only serve to send the com hunting for buildings with energy, and water down strategic trade-offs.


  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (MuYeah @ Nov 28 2011, 03:42 AM) »
    Hmm. It's an interesting topic. My first thought is to agree with you swalk, but that could be because right now we're sort of swimming in res income because the numbers are completely out of whack wrt balance. I must admit I quite like the idea of needing a mix of tech points and RTs as marines and by keeping energy as a '3rd resource' linked only to the CC you'd increase the range of viable strategies.

    There would be a baseline rate of use for all energy linked abilities that all teams would have, adding stability to marine strategy planning and removing some of the frustration of not being able to use your abilities when on low res or saving for an upgrade. The problem with energy comes when therea little choice of what to spend it on and having a high cap, which doesnt punish bad commanders.

    But to fix the problems you identified with spending resources I'd think a simple re-adjustment of income rate to spending rate of medpacks/ammo and maybe the addition of catpacks and MAC mines to the Pres pool would suffice.

    Basically, have a resource linked with techpoints that gives one theme of temp buffs and another linked with RTs that gives another. The trick in balancing it and making them interesting is having the necessary baseline usage of them scale with the opposing team's tech level but allowing you to rush for one type to pull off some sort of preplanned strat while also keeping a low enough income rate for each that the choices of which to use and when actually mean something. Obviously with the assumption that a mechanism exists for you to stockpile enough of each resource type that you can convert an overwhelming dominance in one area (tech point control/res tower control/offensive capability/defensive capability) into any of the others. That is the satisying part and would come with having appropriate comm abilities using each resource.

    Edit: to clarify, youd have to unlock the energy using abilities with the appropriate tech structure and have a maximum energy cap of maybe 3 uses of any combination of abilities perCC

    I get what you mean, but first off, I think it will be much harder to balance having the energy pools around.
    Also, I feel that the energy pools are redundant compared with the resources.
    Tieing more things to energy(which you basicly get for "free") would make the game less interesting, imo.
    I would rather like to see it revolve around getting resources, and trying to out-tech the other team. Using resources wisely.
    Energy pools needs to go.
    In my opinion the Personal res pool for marine commander is pretty balanced with the current things tied to it, and commanders only run out of res when they drop too much stuff.
    Making more things tied to it will make more tradeoffs than there is now, now it's basicly just meds or ammo.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • ZeikkoZeikko Join Date: 2007-12-16 Member: 63179Posts: 585Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 28 2011, 04:24 AM) »
    ehh, I guess if you've got nothing else to build, but they only serve as a meat shield/redundant backup. There's no active benefit to placing them.

    Personally I'd say a robotics factory is a better choice as having one can make a base much more survivable by letting you spawn macs there, and it also cuts down on arc response time, it also is huge and tough much like the CC, so it does everything the CC does really.

    Time after time I feel like you and me are playing totally different game. Nevertheless it is fascinating (and sometimes frustrating) to see people playing the game in totally different way. Even though CC spam got nerfed in the patch because you don't get so much res back by recycling it's still powerful because you hive cost was increased to 100. It's still good strategy to build CCs on each tech point preventing aliens from building hives while pushing to their main.

    My opinion is that CC doesn't need to be buffed because it's quite powerful already considering how cheap it is. I think many people have just not realized the true power of CC spam.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,719Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    I build a Command Station whereever Marines can adequately defend for Nano Shield. It is quite underrated.

    I would love to see one or two more energy-dependent abilities on the CS (med pack, perhaps?).

    Rather than nerfing Nano Shield, the Kharaa commander should be given more powerful abilities. Fury and Flare are in need of usability tweaks.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Nov 28 2011, 11:29 PM) »
    I build a Command Station whereever Marines can adequately defend for Nano Shield. It is quite underrated.

    I would love to see one or two more energy-dependent abilities on the CS (med pack, perhaps?).

    Rather than nerfing Nano Shield, the Kharaa commander should be given more powerful abilities. Fury and Flare are in need of usability tweaks.

    I would dislike to see any more abilities that depend on energy, it's a very cheap resource(requires no map control, and large map control doesn't boost your access to them).
    Things like the observatory and chambers abilities are really spammable, even if you are losing very badly and only have your last base left.
    This includes umbra, fury, beacon, scan etc.
    This means; longer extended games, both in theory and in practice(beacon).
    If all these energy abilities were depended on the current resource situation of the team, it would fit the rest of the game better, imo.
    With my suggestion, you would not be able to keep spamming umbra/distress beacon or other abilities if you don't have the resources for it.
    Energy only needs one thing; time.
    You don't need map control for most of the energy based abilities, and the game is mostly about map control and resources.
    I see removing all energy based abilities as the best option, and making them cost actual resources making the game alot better.
    That would include alot more trade-offs; "Should I give a medpack or a nano shield?" - "Should I give umbra or do I risk it because I want to expand with cysts?"
    And you would be limited by your resources, not just time.
    It would make you think an extra time before just doing things, like cyst spamming marine start. That would be a stupid tactic to do with this suggestion, unless you just wanna waste your resources.
    So a team with lots of resources would have access to use the abilities more.
    I can only see one thing that could depend on energy: Drifters
    On the note of nano shield, my duration nerf suggestion could be out of place, if it would cost resources instead of energy.
    But right now I just see it as an ability you have to use as much as possible, with no trade-offs. Effectively giving marines 100% extra hp in battles if timed correctly.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    Current nano shield is nice because it allows commander-player interaction but it has several problems :

    1. It's redundant with medpack.
    2. It has no drawback: spam it as much as you can.
    3. It has little tactical importance : the player that have it just plays as usual.
    4. It does not require any skill from the players.
    5. Aliens cannot do anything about it. There is no interesting counter expect waiting.
    6. It's not awesome or original, it's a just a very common buff in video games.

    Here is a suggestion that could solve some of theses issues. The idea is to make the nano shield a real shield, a bit similar to cs one. So :

    a) Make the shield area only 1/3 or so of the sphere.
    b) The shield is in front of the marine a move with his aim.
    c) The shield behave like a transparent solid object : it blocks aliens and bullets.
    d) The shield has some health and can be broken by the aliens.

    It has obvious drawback since it blocks both aliens and bullets. It allows advanced team formation (e.g. two nano shields in the front with gls in the back) or tactical use (block a way for a short period of time). Aliens can counter it by trying to go around it, use it for cover, or break it.

    On the visual side you could do a kind of energy shield, that flickers and sparks when attacked.

    I'm not so convinced by my suggestion, but I think problems 1-6 are still valid.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    I strongly disagree with OP.

    Nano Shield being tied to Command Chairs gives the Marine team real incentive to fight and control tech points (other than just to make sure Kharaa don't get them), and provides an actual reward for tech point control that is otherwise severely lacking.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Nov 30 2011, 06:24 PM) »
    I strongly disagree with OP.

    Nano Shield being tied to Command Chairs gives the Marine team real incentive to fight and control tech points (other than just to make sure Kharaa don't get them), and provides an actual reward for tech point control that is otherwise severely lacking.

    That need for expanding your command chair can be aquired in other ways, such as giving a resource flow multiplier(commander pres?).
    This way, more command chairs would still mean more nano shield just with more trade-offs on nano shields usage.
    The current nano shield is too strong compared to it being a free ability.
    You just have to use as much as possible to get the advantage in pvp fights.
    The point is that these abilities doesn't scale with the resource situation.
    Which means they are diverting from the rest of the game; resources.
    Powerful abilities should not be free, but be purchased for resources.
    It will put more decision making into using said abilities. More tactical depth.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850Members
    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 30 2011, 08:47 PM) »
    That need for expanding your command chair can be aquired in other ways, such as giving a resource flow multiplier.
    This way, more command chairs would still mean more nano shield just with more trade-offs on nano shields usage.
    The current nano shield is too strong compared to it being a free ability.
    You just have to use as much as possible to get the advantage in pvp fights.
    The point is that these abilities doesn't scale with the resource situation.
    Which means they are diverting from the rest of the game; resources.
    Powerful abilities should not be free, but be purchased for resources.
    It will put more decision making into using said abilities. More tactical depth.

    Multiplied resources? So Marines with 2 CCs will be getting 2 res per tower every 8 seconds? late-game GL spamming is enough of a pain with the current resource system. I don't think multiplying the severity of the problem is going to help.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2011
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Dec 1 2011, 04:01 AM) »
    Multiplied resources? So Marines with 2 CCs will be getting 2 res per tower every 8 seconds? late-game GL spamming is enough of a pain with the current resource system. I don't think multiplying the severity of the problem is going to help.

    I edited my suggestion.
    I didn't say any numbers, doubling the res income sounds insane to me.
    Also, it seems like you thought I meant for team res.
    And then complaining about GL spam? They cost personal res for individual marines.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 30 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    Current nano shield is nice because it allows commander-player interaction but it has several problems :

    1. It's redundant with medpack.

    Not quite, as it's a buff lasting some time, and protects the armor of the marine.
    But at the moment you don't have to chose between them, and they are very powerful combined.
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 30 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    3. It has little tactical importance : the player that have it just plays as usual.

    I think this is mostly because the field players are not able to see when the commander have dropped the shield on them.
    It allows you to be alot more aggressive, especially if you're in a group of marines.
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 30 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    5. Aliens cannot do anything about it. There is no interesting counter expect waiting.

    I would like to see some kind of counter to it as well, first things that comes to mind is gorge bilebomb(and fade acidrocket?) one hit, and the nano shield is gone.
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 30 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    6. It's not awesome or original, it's a just a very common buff in video games.

    Yes it is a common buff in games, but I think that is has good potiential, just needs some adjustments.
    QUOTE (Yuuki @ Nov 30 2011, 02:36 PM) »
    Here is a suggestion that could solve some of theses issues. The idea is to make the nano shield a real shield, a bit similar to cs one. So :

    a) Make the shield area only 1/3 or so of the sphere.
    b) The shield is in front of the marine a move with his aim.
    c) The shield behave like a transparent solid object : it blocks aliens and bullets.
    d) The shield has some health and can be broken by the aliens.

    It has obvious drawback since it blocks both aliens and bullets. It allows advanced team formation (e.g. two nano shields in the front with gls in the back) or tactical use (block a way for a short period of time). Aliens can counter it by trying to go around it, use it for cover, or break it.

    On the visual side you could do a kind of energy shield, that flickers and sparks when attacked.

    I'm not so convinced by my suggestion, but I think problems 1-6 are still valid.

    Interesting suggestion about it not covering all sides, but making it block bullets would make it not used, as you need as much firepower as possible for the marines when you engage in combat.

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Posts: 646Members
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Nov 27 2011, 08:50 PM) »
    What exactly are resources other than building energy without a cap?

    You place a building, you get money from it, you spend the money to get stuff, then more money appears.

    The only difference between building energy and resources is that building energy also has a cap, which goes up or down depending on how many buildings you have, whereas resources only have an income rate.

    RTs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs are only placeable at specific points on a map, they give a steady amount of income until they are destroyed, income is spent on important material for the fight.

    CCs with energy income are identical to RTs, the key difference is that CCs have DIFFERENT locations from RTs, so putting importance on both energy and res puts emphasis on two different types of map control.

    Pres and Tres on the other hand both come from RTs, so the difference between them is minimal. If you have lots of RTs you get all of your buildings and all of your support powers. You get everything from RTs as marines.

    Aliens on the other hand require RTs for funding lifeforms and upgrades, but they ALSO need hives, which give them more tech. Two key parts of their power are tied to two different key locations on the levels, and so their gameplay tends to be much more strategcally interesting. I need to get some RTs, but I also need to plan to get more hives, because hives are more important than RTs, but I need RTs in order to get hives.

    Whereas marines are much more simple, get RTs, research everything, win game.



    QUOTE (swalk @ Nov 27 2011, 09:23 PM) »
    You're totally wrong here.
    Resources != Building energy.
    All lines in your post are inaccurate, and are very untrue.
    The importance of map control revolves alot around the resources.
    Making stuff not require resources is a bad game design.
    It is better to have a resource system instead of an energy system, the energy system makes the game "spammable" in alot of ways.
    Where do you see a tech point without a resource node right next to it? Cause I have a hard time finding such a spot.
    Having both energy and resources don't give any depth to the game at all, and only leads to spamming certain buildings for more energy.
    Instead of worrying about what this game is actually about; RESOURCES.
    The difference between Tres and Pres is there, as you don't use them for the same things. Tres is for expanding/teching, where Pres is for support/weapons/lifeforms.
    We don't need another type of RT with another type of resources, that's what you're actually asking for the CC to be.
    "Aliens on the other hand..."? Last time I checked marines also use RTs for funding their expansion/tech/weapons.
    It is exactly the same for both teams, and I don't really see where you are getting all this nonsense from.

    To me it just seems like you're posting, just to oppose the suggestion?
    Trollpost is übertrolling.

    To add:
    I would like to see all of the current energy pools converted to one of the two resource pools.
    This would reduce alot of the spam we see in the game currently, as people would have to use it wisely, or waste their resources.
    My suggestion:
    Distress beacon - 10 team res
    Scan - 2 personal res
    Nano Shield - 5 personal res(and halve the time to 4 seconds instead of 8, feels a bit too powerful)
    Alien chamber abilities - 5 personal res
    Cysts - 3 personal res
    Numbers could be tweaked.


    Chris was not trolling you.
    His analogy was in response to the suggestion of having everything energy related tied down to the CC

    if this was to occur, then the CC's become the 'income' for all energy related actions such as beacon/scan/nano shield/whatever else you want here

    similarly res nodes are the 'income' for buildings, weapons, research

    I thought it was a very good way to think of how res/energy works.


    oh and in response to all the other comments about marines and tech nodes...

    I thought later on tier2 and/or tier3 will rely on multiple CC's

    (eg, jp / exo available at 2nd CC)

  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Posts: 1,719Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    How about turning Nano Shield into the primary commander support ability, instead of med pack?

    It would be a lot less problematic than med packs. A Marine has limited life span from "nano shield spam", because it is only a incoming damage modifier, rather than health regeneration.

    Medpacks would have to be "nerfed" to heal slower over time, so it becomes less effective in combat, but function mainly as post-combat healing.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 3 2011, 10:23 AM) »
    Chris was not trolling you.
    His analogy was in response to the suggestion of having everything energy related tied down to the CC

    if this was to occur, then the CC's become the 'income' for all energy related actions such as beacon/scan/nano shield/whatever else you want here

    similarly res nodes are the 'income' for buildings, weapons, research

    I thought it was a very good way to think of how res/energy works.


    oh and in response to all the other comments about marines and tech nodes...

    I thought later on tier2 and/or tier3 will rely on multiple CC's

    (eg, jp / exo available at 2nd CC)

    Having all this stuff tied to energy instead of resources, can also end up limiting you when you got the whole map captured and alot of resources, as well as making supply "unlimited" even tough you have no map control or resources.
    And making Pres not used by marine commander anymore, will cause the exact same problem the alien commander have at the moment.
    Instead it would be better for the game to have all support abilties tied to personal res for the commanders.
    And no, marines are not relying on more command stations to advance in tech. That changed a long time ago.

    QUOTE (twiliteblue @ Dec 3 2011, 10:49 AM) »
    How about turning Nano Shield into the primary commander support ability, instead of med pack?

    It would be a lot less problematic than med packs. A Marine has limited life span from "nano shield spam", because it is only a incoming damage modifier, rather than health regeneration.

    Medpacks would have to be "nerfed" to heal slower over time, so it becomes less effective in combat, but function mainly as post-combat healing.

    I think this would not be nessesary if it was made a trade-off with your resources instead of a free ability.
    The "spam" syndrome comes from energy. We can see this from all over the game.
    The more things that rely on energy instead of resources, the more things will be "spammable".
    Cyst spam, Beacon spam, Nano shield spam, Scan spam, Umbra spam, you get my point.

    There is nothing like giving your marine a nano shield and 3-4 medpacks, effectively keeping him alive for about, idk, 7-8 bites?
    All change there is needed is make things cost resources instead of relying on another "res" pool that's basicly unattached from the rest of the game.
    Eliminate energy, make all support abilities cost Pres for both commanders for get more trade-offs and a more interesting game.
    We don't need more than the two res pools we already got. Actually we got three res pools with energy, but I don't even consider it a "real" resource. Hence why I want it removed from the game.
    Another reason is that all these abilities will become strategical decisions for the commander, instead of a mandatory task.
    Energy is cheap, and making the game too forgiving and spammable.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (ogz @ Dec 3 2011, 09:23 AM) »
    Chris was not trolling you.
    His analogy was in response to the suggestion of having everything energy related tied down to the CC

    if this was to occur, then the CC's become the 'income' for all energy related actions such as beacon/scan/nano shield/whatever else you want here

    similarly res nodes are the 'income' for buildings, weapons, research

    I thought it was a very good way to think of how res/energy works.


    oh and in response to all the other comments about marines and tech nodes...

    I thought later on tier2 and/or tier3 will rely on multiple CC's

    (eg, jp / exo available at 2nd CC)


    You're my new favorite poster.

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    Having all this stuff tied to energy instead of resources, can also end up limiting you when you got the whole map captured and alot of resources, as well as making supply "unlimited" even tough you have no map control or resources.


    Then you need to plan to capture both kinds of point don't you? That's the idea. If you want more power for support abilities, go grab a tech point. If you feel you have enough of those, go for RTs instead. Thus strategy is born.


    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    And making Pres not used by marine commander anymore, will cause the exact same problem the alien commander have at the moment.
    Instead it would be better for the game to have all support abilties tied to personal res for the commanders.
    And no, marines are not relying on more command stations to advance in tech. That changed a long time ago.


    What problem does the alien commander have at the moment?


    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    I think this would not be nessesary if it was made a trade-off with your resources instead of a free ability.
    The "spam" syndrome comes from energy. We can see this from all over the game.
    The more things that rely on energy instead of resources, the more things will be "spammable".
    Cyst spam, Beacon spam, Nano shield spam, Scan spam, Umbra spam, you get my point.


    Well, interestingly, energy has a cap, like I said.

    Pres on the other hand doesn't. There's nothing stopping you from building a bunch of RTs you were going to build anyway because you need them for, like, everything. And then you suddenly have a few hundred Pres sitting in your account. Well that's enough to spam a hundred medkits easy!

    On the other hand, with energy if you feel that an ability is too spammy, you can do things like decrease the energy cap per building, or decrease the energy income rate. You can't do either of those with Pres because pres doesn't have a cap, and its income rate needs to be tied to marine weapon costs, you have to find one income rate that works for marine weapons AND commander support powers. Good luck trying, wouldn't want that to be my job.

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    There is nothing like giving your marine a nano shield and 3-4 medpacks, effectively keeping him alive for about, idk, 7-8 bites?
    All change there is needed is make things cost resources instead of relying on another "res" pool that's basicly unattached from the rest of the game.


    So as a commander, pres would be the thing you spend to power all your support abilities.

    And, what else exactly?

    I mean, there has to be something else surely, otherwise pres would be just like CC energy, which would be the thing you spend to power all of your... support... abilities...

    Hmm.

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    Eliminate energy, make all support abilities cost Pres for both commanders for get more trade-offs and a more interesting game.
    We don't need more than the two res pools we already got. Actually we got three res pools with energy, but I don't even consider it a "real" resource. Hence why I want it removed from the game.


    Well, yes, I suppose there would be a big tradeoff between building RTs to get more support powers and building RTs to get more marine weapons and building RTs to get more buildings.

    I mean, that's three whole reasons to build RTs! If only there were some way to reconcile that dire quandary between building RTs and building RTs...

    QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 4 2011, 06:22 AM) »
    Another reason is that all these abilities will become strategical decisions for the commander, instead of a mandatory task.
    Energy is cheap, and making the game too forgiving and spammable.

    Actually CC energy, being entirely controlled in both income rate, cap, and extraction locations, is worth however much you want it to be.

    Make the cap 50 energy per CC, and make nano shield cost 35, med/ammo 5 each, and beacon 50. then set the income rate to say, 1 energy per second, that's a lot more expensive than pres is at the moment, furthermore the commander has interesting things to consider, does he keep a CC fully charged for a beacon when he needs it? Does he spend it on the frontlines? Does he buff a group of exosuit marines with nanoshield to maximise HP saved? Or does he spend it on medkits. Does he drop ammo or medpacks for his marines? Will the ammo keep them alive better than the hitpoints? Should he reconsider the entire strategy to capture another tech node so he can have double the support cap? Would that make taking the rest of the map much easier? Or would the time spent cost him more than he gained? So many decisions you can only get with a restrictive cap on how much power you can store and separate income locations...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Posts: 1,864Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited December 2011
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    Then you need to plan to capture both kinds of point don't you? That's the idea. If you want more power for support abilities, go grab a tech point. If you feel you have enough of those, go for RTs instead. Thus strategy is born.

    Having CCs energy as the cap for support would be silly, as they are so expensive, and will most likely not be build before late in the game.
    It's better relying on your resources for stuff you want to buy.

    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    What problem does the alien commander have at the moment?

    Alien commander doesn't have anything to use his personal resources at, at the moment. This is a gap in the game in my opinion.

    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    Well, interestingly, energy has a cap, like I said.

    Pres on the other hand doesn't. There's nothing stopping you from building a bunch of RTs you were going to build anyway because you need them for, like, everything. And then you suddenly have a few hundred Pres sitting in your account. Well that's enough to spam a hundred medkits easy!

    On the other hand, with energy if you feel that an ability is too spammy, you can do things like decrease the energy cap per building, or decrease the energy income rate. You can't do either of those with Pres because pres doesn't have a cap, and its income rate needs to be tied to marine weapon costs, you have to find one income rate that works for marine weapons AND commander support powers. Good luck trying, wouldn't want that to be my job.

    Pres doesn't need a cap, and energy is less interesting than resources.
    Energy would still, in most cases, just stock up to maximum energy until the ability is needed. Not interesting.
    Paying with the structures individual energy pool gives you no trade-off whatsoever.
    Paying with personal resources would force you to choose between different things, strategical decisions with resources. RTS.

    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    So as a commander, pres would be the thing you spend to power all your support abilities.

    And, what else exactly?

    I mean, there has to be something else surely, otherwise pres would be just like CC energy, which would be the thing you spend to power all of your... support... abilities...

    Hmm.

    Well, that is the point, personal resources are the new resource pool for weapons/lifeforms/support. This has been stated by UWE before.
    Let's make it better, following their lead.
    The game would be alot more interesting with everything costing resources, compared with some abilities left over to cost energy.

    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    Well, yes, I suppose there would be a big tradeoff between building RTs to get more support powers and building RTs to get more marine weapons and building RTs to get more buildings.

    I mean, that's three whole reasons to build RTs! If only there were some way to reconcile that dire quandary between building RTs and building RTs...

    Correct, RTs are the most important buildings you need. Will always be.
    If you want to win the game, collect more resources than the other team, and outplay them.
    Having stuff relying on energy would not change this, only divert from it.
    Having stuff relying on resources instead, would make it more interesting.

    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Dec 5 2011, 04:10 AM) »
    Actually CC energy, being entirely controlled in both income rate, cap, and extraction locations, is worth however much you want it to be.

    Make the cap 50 energy per CC, and make nano shield cost 35, med/ammo 5 each, and beacon 50. then set the income rate to say, 1 energy per second, that's a lot more expensive than pres is at the moment, furthermore the commander has interesting things to consider, does he keep a CC fully charged for a beacon when he needs it? Does he spend it on the frontlines? Does he buff a group of exosuit marines with nanoshield to maximise HP saved? Or does he spend it on medkits. Does he drop ammo or medpacks for his marines? Will the ammo keep them alive better than the hitpoints? Should he reconsider the entire strategy to capture another tech node so he can have double the support cap? Would that make taking the rest of the map much easier? Or would the time spent cost him more than he gained? So many decisions you can only get with a restrictive cap on how much power you can store and separate income locations...

    It's cheap, as in a "cheap trick", not like in "cheap car".
    Yeah that would indeed be horrible for the game, now you can't support your team 90% of the times they need it.
    We just need things to cost resources, and find another way of giving more Command Stations a greater purpose.
    All these tradeoffs you mention is almost exactly the same as I want. I just want them to cost actual resources instead of silly energy.
    The PRes pool is perfect for that. It was even designed for that. Now it needs adjustments to make it more interesting.
    Post edited by Unknown User on

    NS2 6v6 Gathers
    QUOTE (Floodinator @ Feb 28 2012, 08:41 PM) »
    it's always a good idea to kill swalk or he will kill you.
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Posts: 1,731Members
    >1. It's redundant with medpack.
    >
    >Not quite, as it's a buff lasting some time, and protects the armor of the marine.
    >But at the moment you don't have to chose between them, and they are very powerful combined.

    Still, the mechanisms is a bit different, but the goal is the same, make your marine survive a bit longer. Two tools for the same purpose.

    >5. Aliens cannot do anything about it. There is no interesting counter expect waiting.
    >
    >I would like to see some kind of counter to it as well, first things that comes to mind is gorge bilebomb
    >(and fade acidrocket?) one hit, and the nano shield is gone.

    This sounds really like a buff-debuff war like in rpg : "marine comm cast the "nano-shield", alien comm counter it by using the "infest armor" spell", etc...

    To me this kind of spells feel out of place in ns.
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