<!--quoteo(post=1895897:date=Jan 19 2012, 10:44 PM:name=elodea)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elodea @ Jan 19 2012, 10:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895897"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well the way i see it you have an either either choice. balance random starts to work with summit, or balance maps to work with random starts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This.
Tram is absolutely terrible with random starts but Summit is pretty well balanced.
I really don't like the random starts. I mean it's cool to have it as an option for some maps, but I think the majority of maps will only really be balanced for fixed spawns. Skulk rushing was never really a problem on summit with the fixed spawns because of the time it took the aliens to cross the map. Now it's a problem because both teams can spawn very close to each other.
I feel like random spawns on summit really break the flow of the map. For me the games where we spawn close to the enemy are a lot less interesting. Half of the map lies empty as all the combat is focused down the shortest route. With the standard spawn locations both sides of the map were used relatively equally and you always had multiple routes to get to the alien hive.
I thought random starts would be fun and make it more interesting as you would need to scout the enemy, but in practice it just isn't very fun imo.
Yeah, i agree that Skulk rushing is quite the problem, especially with Tram and Server + Warehouse spawns. One thing that could be done (Albeit a probably hard one) would be to have doors connected to the "easy-route" locked by default, forcing Skulks (And maybe Marines) to take the long way around for a period of time (Say...10 - 15 minutes) before unlocking, giving time to build up anti-rush fortifications (Think along the lines of the Siege doors for the old Siege maps for NS1)
You should start with an IP anyway, what on earth is the point in not starting with one? What does it achieve? When do you ever do anything other than drop an IP and build it immediately?
Relocation is not an excuse, there's nothing that stops you from recycling the IP when you move.
I would suggest starting with an IP and sentries covering the start room, as well as aliens getting some sort of static defences too, I'd suggest hydras for the versatility.
I have to agree start with an optimally placed ip, and maybe some extra resources to spend on base defense so that time you used to spend building ip(s) could go towards a couple turrets. Most players dislike spending resources on turrets early when you want to get armor upgraded quicker, but if you had that extra resources to spend on some turrets at least you couldn't blame the game at that point.
vlncJoin Date: 2010-09-07Member: 73921Members, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
NS2 Twitter <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're setting up an official company server for everyone to play on. It's a beast, to make sure you can always get a big, fast game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for adding a new strong server to the server list UWE :)
Official US Server ? Have you plan to add more around the globe ?
<!--quoteo(post=1895946:date=Jan 20 2012, 01:56 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Jan 20 2012, 01:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You should start with an IP anyway, what on earth is the point in not starting with one? What does it achieve? When do you ever do anything other than drop an IP and build it immediately?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Absolutely agree, not having the starting IP is just annoying. Casuals want to play NS2 too.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 Twitter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Twitter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're setting up an official company server for everyone to play on. It's a beast, to make sure you can always get a big, fast game. #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I was in your shoes I would do the same, however as a consumer a 4+GHz CPU shouldn't be a requirement for a server.
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=NS2 Twitter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NS2 Twitter)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Just had a big discussion about reducing effectiveness of early game skulk rushing. Reducing IP build time? Start with an IP? #fb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reducing build time - while this may it harder to skulk-rush win in the first 5mins, it may be a PITA in mid-late game. Start with IP - this makes sense, aliens start with eggs
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
I don't see how starting with IP would make marines to stand a chance against the ridiculously overpowered skulk - gorge ball. Most of the time you can kill the whole marine team without losing a single alien by bunching up in one big alien ball and moving together while gorges heal.
To be honest i found the build 191 to be the most balanced build for competetive gaming so far. There were couple of problems like the mine spam, cheap hives and the lack of alien scalability in the end game. Now instead of aliens scalability they were buffed overall and It's almost impossible to win as marines in compeetive setting in build 192.
To what I understand as a rushing problem would be solved by nerfing aliens in early game and making them more scalable towards the end game. But I guess this is bound to happen when we get oni and more upgrades. Looking forward to that.
ArgathorJoin Date: 2011-07-18Member: 110942Members, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=UWE)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UWE)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're setting up an official company server for everyone to play on. It's a beast, to make sure you can always get a big, fast game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am honestly pleased that you are finally going to the same efforts that you have expected the community to goto for us to test your game. It is a big step forwards.
It seems the server is West Coast (guessing as I get a ping over 200ms from the UK)? It would be nice to have an east coast server so that people from the EU could play more easily too (or even better an EU server too, although I understand logistically that is a lot more effort).
I look forward to my first game on it, but I just joined and the server crashed and dissapeared from the server list? It seems there might be some teething problems?
<!--quoteo(post=1895914:date=Jan 19 2012, 05:24 PM:name=Wilson)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wilson @ Jan 19 2012, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1895914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Skulk rushing was never really a problem on summit with the fixed spawns because of the time it took the aliens to cross the map. Now it's a problem because both teams can spawn very close to each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How about the mapper can create "scenarios" and the game pick one at random.
For example: Scenario 1 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at B Scenario 2 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at C Scenario 3 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at D Scenario 4 : Marines spawn at B, Aliens at A Scenario 5 : Marines spawn at B, Aliens at C
The random spawns of NS only need 3 scenario's, maps with fixed spawns only have 1.
Then the mapper just needs to create the scenario's so they are never close to eachother. yes you get less random, but more balance.
How about you link to the posts in the random spawns thread, instead of making it look like your own idea? :P <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1895998" target="_blank">here</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1896006" target="_blank">here</a> Its like reddit.com, just that you dont even get useless karma here...
<!--quoteo(post=1896152:date=Jan 20 2012, 11:08 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Jan 20 2012, 11:08 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about you link to the posts in the random spawns thread, instead of making it look like your own idea? :P <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1895998" target="_blank">here</a> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1896006" target="_blank">here</a> Its like reddit.com, just that you dont even get useless karma here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, if you dig deep enough into the forums you can see that I was the one who came originally up with the idea of use these "scenarios" (or at least posted about it first). And yes I don't have time to read every update on the forum to see if it's suggested again, so sorry about that.
I'm just happy this idea gets some more attention.
While the early game might stabilize a bit with IP adjustment, I think the close positions are inheritently really volatile and fragile. Losing a fight decisive has a big risk of snowballing into enemy rushing the opponent's spawning area and leaving opponent no chance of forming an effective defence.
Start ip would be nice since if you join after start but before up you can't spawn.... Problem when the first two people refuse or don't know how to comm....
Have start ip come with reduced hp, encourage comm to build second but not required...
ZeikkoJoin Date: 2007-12-16Member: 63179Members, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester
<!--quoteo(post=1896216:date=Jan 20 2012, 09:05 PM:name=maD maX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (maD maX @ Jan 20 2012, 09:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1896216"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Start ip would be nice since if you join after start but before up you can't spawn.... Problem when the first two people refuse or don't know how to comm....
Have start ip come with reduced hp, encourage comm to build second but not required...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this problem is related more to the fact that the rounds start before people join the teams. This could be prevented by requiring a configurable minimum amount of percentage of players needed in teams before the round starts. The fact that games start before players joining teams ruins most of the public games.
They are ranged so they can just stand in a hallway and shoot the aliens when they come.
<b>Marines are temporarily too cocky from recent patches where they were unbalanced and now they think they can rush and if they meet a skulk at melee distance still think it should be even odds with even skill. </b> That is not the case.
This actually brings random spawns into play because you are forced to make an interesting decision about how to proceed; how aggressive will you be? Once the hive location is known, THEN how aggressive will you be? And how does that evaluation change as you watch the kills? So as you travel across the map, you are constantly re-evaluating both where and how you should proceed. I love random spawns.
If your team is really thinking that early skulk rushes are overpovered ( as I think theyr kinda is when played well). My solution would be disposable beacon trough cc. To balance and keep the rush tac still in game it could be nerfed to spawn only half of the team or # of players. Rushes could still succeed if played properly.
But the emergency beacon would give you a chance when it looks like lost case scenario (when skulks biting ip/s down). And if you manage to fend it off, marines would have the time to build their ip and recover as aliens would have the time to hatch aswell. It would require work to balance it but think about it.
[EDIT]
Or it would have function that you could use it just, when your ip is at low healt 50<%. That sounds very reasonable to me. It would also fade out in first 5 minutes (dunno is that even needed)? Or it would come unusable when you have more than 1 IP.
Maybe start with a mac instead and balance with reduced mac repair rate and slightly higher build rate? =D. Its a passive way to increase ip build times without relying on any gimmicks like prebuilt IP's and allow some kind of early game repair without having to shonk 20 res on horrible robotics. Playing ns2 on Remedy's eclipse remake and the ip timings feel fine for classic ns1 type maps.
I think starting with a mac might be quite an effective yet non-intrusive way to bridge the gap between having different types of random spawn dynamics on different maps.
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2012
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nerfing Lerk spikes vs. Command Stations. Shifting health to armor and increasing spike energy cost (Look what you guys make me do!).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you sure shifting health to armor, while being on the same total health budget (vs normal damage) will have much effect at all? I hope Lerk won't run out of energy in 5 seconds using Spikes! But with team effort, that is all it takes to destroy a CS.
The problem described is due to the non-scaling health of structures against player damage. For example, in the future, 12 v 12 games will have up to 12 Lerks, whose damage could theoretically take down a CS in 3 seconds. There is little that Marines can do to defend against that, especially if the Lerks are protected by Cloak or Carapace.
Lerk's extreme damage is another reason why the Lerk is killing Command Station so fast. Spikes accuracy is too low, thus you increased its damage to compensate. The maximum damage "machinegun" Spikes deal need to be reduced (right now it's 300 DPS against unarmored targets!), but their accuracy at long range could be increased to reward good aim. If the damage proves to be too high, then it won't too difficult to tweak the damage dropoff.
<!--quoteo(post=1897650:date=Jan 27 2012, 02:50 PM:name=BuzterOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuzterOne @ Jan 27 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1897650"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not let ALL macs deploy ONE"cheap" turret each? And let the mainres start with 1 mac?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why not remove macs, and let marines do the work themselves or better yet the commander? which can promote only better teamwork, and relationship between commander and his marines.
Comments
This.
Tram is absolutely terrible with random starts but Summit is pretty well balanced.
I feel like random spawns on summit really break the flow of the map. For me the games where we spawn close to the enemy are a lot less interesting. Half of the map lies empty as all the combat is focused down the shortest route. With the standard spawn locations both sides of the map were used relatively equally and you always had multiple routes to get to the alien hive.
I thought random starts would be fun and make it more interesting as you would need to scout the enemy, but in practice it just isn't very fun imo.
Relocation is not an excuse, there's nothing that stops you from recycling the IP when you move.
I would suggest starting with an IP and sentries covering the start room, as well as aliens getting some sort of static defences too, I'd suggest hydras for the versatility.
Simple solution, I guess. Have the first two structures (CC and IP) "restore" all resources when you recycle them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We're setting up an official company server for everyone to play on. It's a beast, to make sure you can always get a big, fast game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for adding a new strong server to the server list UWE :)
Official US Server ? Have you plan to add more around the globe ?
Absolutely agree, not having the starting IP is just annoying. Casuals want to play NS2 too.
If I was in your shoes I would do the same, however as a consumer a 4+GHz CPU shouldn't be a requirement for a server.
Reducing build time - while this may it harder to skulk-rush win in the first 5mins, it may be a PITA in mid-late game.
Start with IP - this makes sense, aliens start with eggs
To be honest i found the build 191 to be the most balanced build for competetive gaming so far. There were couple of problems like the mine spam, cheap hives and the lack of alien scalability in the end game. Now instead of aliens scalability they were buffed overall and It's almost impossible to win as marines in compeetive setting in build 192.
To what I understand as a rushing problem would be solved by nerfing aliens in early game and making them more scalable towards the end game. But I guess this is bound to happen when we get oni and more upgrades. Looking forward to that.
I am honestly pleased that you are finally going to the same efforts that you have expected the community to goto for us to test your game. It is a big step forwards.
It seems the server is West Coast (guessing as I get a ping over 200ms from the UK)? It would be nice to have an east coast server so that people from the EU could play more easily too (or even better an EU server too, although I understand logistically that is a lot more effort).
I look forward to my first game on it, but I just joined and the server crashed and dissapeared from the server list? It seems there might be some teething problems?
How about the mapper can create "scenarios" and the game pick one at random.
For example:
Scenario 1 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at B
Scenario 2 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at C
Scenario 3 : Marines spawn at A, Aliens at D
Scenario 4 : Marines spawn at B, Aliens at A
Scenario 5 : Marines spawn at B, Aliens at C
The random spawns of NS only need 3 scenario's, maps with fixed spawns only have 1.
Then the mapper just needs to create the scenario's so they are never close to eachother. yes you get less random, but more balance.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1895998" target="_blank">here</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1896006" target="_blank">here</a>
Its like reddit.com, just that you dont even get useless karma here...
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1895998" target="_blank">here</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=115904&view=findpost&p=1896006" target="_blank">here</a>
Its like reddit.com, just that you dont even get useless karma here...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, if you dig deep enough into the forums you can see that I was the one who came originally up with the idea of use these "scenarios" (or at least posted about it first). And yes I don't have time to read every update on the forum to see if it's suggested again, so sorry about that.
I'm just happy this idea gets some more attention.
Your answer remind me one of Obraxis ? Which one ? YOU DECIDE.
But cool that we had kinda the same idea... :)
@vlnc: seems like i dont get french humor, sry :/
It lets marines leave the base faster too.
Don't mess with the build timing unless you are balancing the whole game.
Have start ip come with reduced hp, encourage comm to build second but not required...
Have start ip come with reduced hp, encourage comm to build second but not required...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think this problem is related more to the fact that the rounds start before people join the teams. This could be prevented by requiring a configurable minimum amount of percentage of players needed in teams before the round starts. The fact that games start before players joining teams ruins most of the public games.
I suggest tweaking Nano Shield, so Marines spawning from a shielded IP are also shielded.
Shotguns, however, are available way too early in the game. Every Marine can be carrying one as early as 50 seconds into the game.
They are ranged so they can just stand in a hallway and shoot the aliens when they come.
<b>Marines are temporarily too cocky from recent patches where they were unbalanced and now they think they can rush and if they meet a skulk at melee distance still think it should be even odds with even skill.
</b>
That is not the case.
This actually brings random spawns into play because you are forced to make an interesting decision about how to proceed; how aggressive will you be? Once the hive location is known, THEN how aggressive will you be? And how does that evaluation change as you watch the kills? So as you travel across the map, you are constantly re-evaluating both where and how you should proceed. I love random spawns.
But the emergency beacon would give you a chance when it looks like lost case scenario (when skulks biting ip/s down). And if you manage to fend it off, marines would have the time to build their ip and recover as aliens would have the time to hatch aswell. It would require work to balance it but think about it.
[EDIT]
Or it would have function that you could use it just, when your ip is at low healt 50<%. That sounds very reasonable to me. It would also fade out in first 5 minutes (dunno is that even needed)? Or it would come unusable when you have more than 1 IP.
I think starting with a mac might be quite an effective yet non-intrusive way to bridge the gap between having different types of random spawn dynamics on different maps.
Are you sure shifting health to armor, while being on the same total health budget (vs normal damage) will have much effect at all? I hope Lerk won't run out of energy in 5 seconds using Spikes! But with team effort, that is all it takes to destroy a CS.
The problem described is due to the non-scaling health of structures against player damage. For example, in the future, 12 v 12 games will have up to 12 Lerks, whose damage could theoretically take down a CS in 3 seconds. There is little that Marines can do to defend against that, especially if the Lerks are protected by Cloak or Carapace.
Lerk's extreme damage is another reason why the Lerk is killing Command Station so fast. Spikes accuracy is too low, thus you increased its damage to compensate. The maximum damage "machinegun" Spikes deal need to be reduced (right now it's 300 DPS against unarmored targets!), but their accuracy at long range could be increased to reward good aim. If the damage proves to be too high, then it won't too difficult to tweak the damage dropoff.
And let the mainres start with 1 mac?
And let the mainres start with 1 mac?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why not remove macs, and let marines do the work themselves or better yet the commander?
which can promote only better teamwork, and relationship between commander and his marines.