<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Would anything be gained by adding a rank system into the main NS2 gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No
ScardyBobScardyBobJoin Date: 2009-11-25Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1849136:date=May 29 2011, 10:33 PM:name=wulf)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wulf @ May 29 2011, 10:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1849136"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We should get sponsor emblems. In the crappy direction things are going, I think military/security/whatever organizations will be funded and sponsored through advertisements. I want a bright emblem showing off my favorite future beer on my back.
Yeah what a terrible idea<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I tried to find anything on a possible ranking system and only found a few hardcore NS players saying no to some sort of ranking system.
I think you should REALLY rethink that position. This game needs some form of reward system to make new gamers return to it and build a new fanbase. The Hardcore NS crowd might not like it, but looking at these posts they only want flashbacks to how things were back in the day.(eg...didnt do Serious Sam 3 any good now did it) Simple fact is, gamers like getting rewards added to their personal profile. It doesnt matter in what form. Its just the way the current gaming world works. Perks are a big no no, I agree on that. But a basic ranking system is a must if you want some sort reason to make new gamers to return. A massive achievement list (besides the Steam one) also helps allot.
Ranks are just how games attract new crowds and get a large player/fanbase. And this game screams for something like that. Even if it is only a number in the right side of your screen (or something)
<!--quoteo(post=1907183:date=Feb 26 2012, 11:25 AM:name=Hemi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hemi @ Feb 26 2012, 11:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907183"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I tried to find anything on a possible ranking system and only found a few hardcore NS players saying no to some sort of ranking system.
I think you should REALLY rethink that position. This game needs some form of reward system to make new gamers return to it and build a new fanbase. The Hardcore NS crowd might not like it, but looking at these posts they only want flashbacks to how things were back in the day.(eg...didnt do Serious Sam 3 any good now did it) Simple fact is, gamers like getting rewards added to their personal profile. It doesnt matter in what form. Its just the way the current gaming world works. Perks are a big no no, I agree on that. But a basic ranking system is a must if you want some sort reason to make new gamers to return. A massive achievement list (besides the Steam one) also helps allot.
Ranks are just how games attract new crowds and get a large player/fanbase. And this game screams for something like that. Even if it is only a number in the right side of your screen (or something)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game should attract and hold players because it's fun. Keeping people around by hitting them with rank/title based sunk-cost fallacies just leads to a community of bitter elitists. It's arguments like the one above that create things like Modern Warfare. Gamers aren't mice and games aren't skinner boxes; you can create enjoyable and lasting experiences without manipulating them emotionally. If you can't, you really need to rework your game.
I think there should be some kind of ranking system. Could also use it to auto-join games where players are the same rank as you. Would also be nice to see what rank the commander is.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game should attract and hold players because it's fun. Keeping people around by hitting them with rank/title based sunk-cost fallacies just leads to a community of bitter elitists. It's arguments like the one above that create things like Modern Warfare. Gamers aren't mice and games aren't skinner boxes; you can create enjoyable and lasting experiences without manipulating them emotionally. If you can't, you really need to rework your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Its these old-fashioned views that make revamps of old games like SS3 die an unnecessary death. The majority of the gamers out there want ranking/point systems like this, and only the hardcore fanbase are always against it. You need these systems in some form or another to make the game interesting besides the brilliant gameplay (which it allready has)
I myself are from the wolfenstein 3d / Doom generation, and I understand your views. My only concern is gamers that DO play the CODs or Killing Floors and are used to these systems will let this game die a slow death. There has yet to come a PC game without some sort of progression system that proves this wrong.(FPS wise of lately)
NS2 needs something to make players return besides the awesome gameplay. Im very afraid that if we dont, we end up with 20 semi empty dedicated servers online at the end of the year OR indeed the combat mode will fill up the serverlists once again.
Just a really basic system, without interfering with the gameplay is enough. Its not that it needs a very elaborate system like Halo's.
And no I dont play COD/BF, I never have..and never will. Im concerned for the future of this game since PC gamers have so little to look forward too these days.
If you think team stacking sucks now, imagine if people had a reason to do it =P I would say NO to this idea. People would premade/team stack endlessly to preserve their stats (K:DR and W/L ratio etc) and it would make the game much less fun.
<!--quoteo(post=1907209:date=Feb 26 2012, 08:25 PM:name=Hemi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hemi @ Feb 26 2012, 08:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Its these old-fashioned views that make revamps of old games like SS3 die an unnecessary death. The majority of the gamers out there want ranking/point systems like this, and only the hardcore fanbase are always against it.
...
Just a really basic system, without interfering with the gameplay is enough. Its not that it needs a very elaborate system like Halo's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said when this thread was started, I wouldn't mind some sort of ranking system as long as it's not too in your face. Maybe allow us to disable it in the settings? But seeing it as a necessity or a core part of making the game more popular, I'm not sure about that.
People who are attracted by this sort of ranking system are probably not going to be impressed with a simple, low-key system, especially if there are no actual rewards involved. They are used to CoD or whatever and those games with every iteration go further over the top. We can't compete on their turf.
Besides, do we want to compete on their turf? I agree with Tech that people who are primarily in it for the e-peen enhancement make terrible communities. CoD being a great example. That doesn't matter if you're EA and just looking to cash in but I don't think UWE wants to go that route.
You're right that PC gaming feels like it's on a downward slope, but do we really make things better by going along with that? The original NS was a cult hit for going against the grain.
Just some thoughts, I don't really know either way.
I agree its a very delicate road to walk. And sure, I don't want anything like CoD either. But a simple sheet of your stats and earnings for yourself to view can't hurt anyone. Then the bragging is only present within the communities that play the game.(forums were people post the length of their online genitalia. etc)
Just an option with playerstats in the main menu, only to be viewed by the clients.
if there were to be a ranking system it has to be planned properly and released only when its fully tested and completely free of flaws. due to human nature (rage quitting, wanna be on only the winning team) this add-in could destroy the game. you can't just give points for the command based on that the team he was on won. you need to create a complex system that rewards those that deserve it.
i'll give you a example on this.
Example 1 : skulk #1 bites marine 2 times then skulk #2 does the final bite. in this game atm, skulk #2 takes all the credit.
Example 2 : starcraft 1 player creates a new account to fight bots to gain a great record. (i have taken part in these un honourable games where host puts 8 vs 1 comp stomp matches to gain wins)
Example 3 : payday the heist, he lower then rank 100, kick him.
you'll have to devise a system that truely can measure the skill of a player or whats there to stop them from just spectating then all of sudden decides to join the team that has gained control of the whole map and takes credit for something he barely contributed to.
i say it would be best not to base it on wins/loses of game but based on med pack dropped on player, nano shields placement on marine under attack, ammo dropped on player with low ammo when requested etc. basically, putting down on paper if the commander is known to help the player, a rating of how fast the commander is to drop something after player requested it, how quickly commander responsed to "based under attack" messages etc.
Sun Tzu : To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength; to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight; to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
basically the relevance of that quote is , whats to stop people from stacking teams or only joining the team with veterans and good players and avoiding the side with new and less skilled players. stats are great on games with 1 vs 1 where but side's had equal power and won the battle through skill. but when a game like natural selection 2 where its very team based and your success is tied to the mometum of success of the team how can you really measure skill if the stats only state wins and loses or kills to deaths. the gorge won't have a great record then and might deter the use of such a vital support class.
IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--quoteo(post=1907341:date=Feb 27 2012, 12:26 AM:name=RockyMarc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RockyMarc @ Feb 27 2012, 12:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907341"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Everything that TF2 has become, NS2 must not become. Please no ranking, unlocks, hats, achievments, crafting, trading, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Achievements have been discussed before and are fine if they try to promote teamwork. And TF2 doesn't have a ranking system.
Ranking systems are fine if the game uses it well and doesn't give higher ranking players an unfair advantage. Which shouldn't be the case because this isn't battlefield or a f2p game, all the game modifiers are up to the commander.
I'm fine with a little bit of rank elitism, generally people who play with a higher ranking person end up wanting to play more to catch up to their level and surpass them. Slight cosmetic milestone unlocks generally give a greater deal of satisfaction as well, like the marine variants seen in the 'meet the fade' video.
Even if it comes after 1.0 I'd enjoy seeing this sort of ranking system.
Server ranking systems are the only good ones. Being able to see the top 10-20 highest scorers is usually fun. Maybe something like top kills can be added. K/D is not something that should be tracked. You would have people just going fade and sniping kills or farming marine infantry portals. W/L ratio would promote premades and stop people from joining teams that they know will probably loose.
<!--quoteo(post=1848546:date=May 26 2011, 08:29 AM:name=Ender_74)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ender_74 @ May 26 2011, 08:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1848546"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't turn NS2 into the next COD... arms upgrade, xp and all... yurk
Why does every FPS seems to need an xp system nowadays ? NS is a team-based game, if you do well your team will win, and not you will get a fancy gun ...
If it is just a rank, why not but how will you determine who "won", of course the commander did not score a lot of kills, but his role is however crucial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
if there's rank, it should not come with any gameplay benefits: i highly agree on that. basic problem with k/d w/l and score-based rankings: it can be abused and it does not reflect the environment you play in (e.g. pub vs gathers). still, i bet some person will introduce a mod for this, which will run on certain servers and there will be no way to prevent this from happening anyway.
well, the rank could be something neutral like hours of actual gameplay (not counting ready room ofc) but that could also encourage afk-ers. maybe only count minutes where the player did at least press X different buttons or whatever. something people don't expect, so they are unlikely to abuse it.
Yes, but the problem with it beeing a mod is that the normal non-ranking game will be taken over in the serverlists by extreem modded servers that will take forever to join and were everything is OP. (see L4D/CounterStrike/Killing Floor)
Some sort of reward system (im not saying ranks anymore lol) besides achievements would benefit the sales of the game allot imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1907195:date=Feb 26 2012, 09:59 AM:name=Techercizer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 26 2012, 09:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1907195"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This game should attract and hold players because it's fun. Keeping people around by hitting them with rank/title based sunk-cost fallacies just leads to a community of bitter elitists. It's arguments like the one above that create things like Modern Warfare. Gamers aren't mice and games aren't skinner boxes; you can create enjoyable and lasting experiences without manipulating them emotionally. If you can't, you really need to rework your game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Proof is allready there that games with systems like that make for a larger community. NS2 has the potential to become huge, and personally I dont want to be in the same servers fighting the same NS fanboys after 6 months release. If you can get the CoD players by implementing some sort of addictive rank/achievement system and convert them to the NS2 crowd, then more power to you.
Take Killing Floor, it hit the 1.1 million sold mark a few weeks back. Why? Cous players had reasons to return to it every time they finished a game.
NS2 has a very healthy start with working SDK's and dedicated server support and it would be shame if it dies a horrid death after 6 months.
Dwelling in the past has never been healthy for a game, specially nowadays. Achievements//Ranks//Perks in combination with event DLC etc are systems that have proven that they make players return to games long after the release date.
What is wrong with simply earning a reputation for being a good player? In the NS days I was not heavily into the clan scene, but after playing it a couple of hours a week for a while I began to work out who were the good players, the average players and the occasional players.
'Skill' in is a lot more nuanced in ns than in other fps games, and therefore hard to fairly represent through cold stats. you maybe ###### at aiming, but be a communicator who is highly map aware. you may be a crappy skulk, but a devastating fade (me - though not in ns2.. yet ;)). that's the great strength of the game: There is a role for everybody - you don't have to be a faultless quicksilver to have fun.
I dont personally see any good reason to make ranking system. For me best reward is to play with good people and win as a team while doing good individual performance. I have played for few weeks and I know clearly who can play the game and who cannot, I dont need a ranking system for it.
Maybe I just dont understand the ranking system and personally FPS games which have had any kind of achievement, ranking (game side), leveling systems have been bad FPS games and not fun. I have played BF 3 and I hated the leveling and ranking system so much. Alltought the whole game is full of ######. Was my first BF-serie and last, wont ever by that kind of ######, but this is little off topic.
Anyway, ranking system would only make carebears/pros to care about their personal stats and forget the teamwork. It wouldnt give any reasons to go back to rise your ranking, wtf dude?? You come back to play because you want to relax and you can only relax if you are enjoying the game, not because you are increasing your E-PENIS, none care your E-PENIS. Dont break the good community with this kind of ######, it would only make selfish players. Just like in BF 3. BF3 community is soooo bad.
I agree with you...but its a simple fact games with these systems attract players. NOT only the cod/bf3 players, but also players who just want to see some kind of reward for their ingame efforts. You dont break anything by adding a thought-out system that works for NS2. If NS2 steps away from standard FPS gaming, it can also do that with the reward system...instead of "we will just leave it out"... thats not very creative thinking now is it...
I play the game also regardless, but I also want to think about how a reward system would work for NS2. Who knows...we might come up with something that's actually better then whats currently out there.
Comments
No
Yeah what a terrible idea<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SpaceBudLite
MoonMGD
CaptainCoors
Whats not to love?
encourage rambo "enable"
I think you should REALLY rethink that position. This game needs some form of reward system to make new gamers return to it and build a new fanbase. The Hardcore NS crowd might not like it, but looking at these posts they only want flashbacks to how things were back in the day.(eg...didnt do Serious Sam 3 any good now did it) Simple fact is, gamers like getting rewards added to their personal profile. It doesnt matter in what form. Its just the way the current gaming world works. Perks are a big no no, I agree on that. But a basic ranking system is a must if you want some sort reason to make new gamers to return. A massive achievement list (besides the Steam one) also helps allot.
Ranks are just how games attract new crowds and get a large player/fanbase. And this game screams for something like that. Even if it is only a number in the right side of your screen (or something)
I think you should REALLY rethink that position. This game needs some form of reward system to make new gamers return to it and build a new fanbase. The Hardcore NS crowd might not like it, but looking at these posts they only want flashbacks to how things were back in the day.(eg...didnt do Serious Sam 3 any good now did it) Simple fact is, gamers like getting rewards added to their personal profile. It doesnt matter in what form. Its just the way the current gaming world works. Perks are a big no no, I agree on that. But a basic ranking system is a must if you want some sort reason to make new gamers to return. A massive achievement list (besides the Steam one) also helps allot.
Ranks are just how games attract new crowds and get a large player/fanbase. And this game screams for something like that. Even if it is only a number in the right side of your screen (or something)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This game should attract and hold players because it's fun. Keeping people around by hitting them with rank/title based sunk-cost fallacies just leads to a community of bitter elitists. It's arguments like the one above that create things like Modern Warfare. Gamers aren't mice and games aren't skinner boxes; you can create enjoyable and lasting experiences without manipulating them emotionally. If you can't, you really need to rework your game.
Its these old-fashioned views that make revamps of old games like SS3 die an unnecessary death. The majority of the gamers out there want ranking/point systems like this, and only the hardcore fanbase are always against it. You need these systems in some form or another to make the game interesting besides the brilliant gameplay (which it allready has)
I myself are from the wolfenstein 3d / Doom generation, and I understand your views. My only concern is gamers that DO play the CODs or Killing Floors and are used to these systems will let this game die a slow death. There has yet to come a PC game without some sort of progression system that proves this wrong.(FPS wise of lately)
NS2 needs something to make players return besides the awesome gameplay. Im very afraid that if we dont, we end up with 20 semi empty dedicated servers online at the end of the year OR indeed the combat mode will fill up the serverlists once again.
Just a really basic system, without interfering with the gameplay is enough. Its not that it needs a very elaborate system like Halo's.
And no I dont play COD/BF, I never have..and never will. Im concerned for the future of this game since PC gamers have so little to look forward too these days.
...
Just a really basic system, without interfering with the gameplay is enough. Its not that it needs a very elaborate system like Halo's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said when this thread was started, I wouldn't mind some sort of ranking system as long as it's not too in your face. Maybe allow us to disable it in the settings? But seeing it as a necessity or a core part of making the game more popular, I'm not sure about that.
People who are attracted by this sort of ranking system are probably not going to be impressed with a simple, low-key system, especially if there are no actual rewards involved. They are used to CoD or whatever and those games with every iteration go further over the top. We can't compete on their turf.
Besides, do we want to compete on their turf? I agree with Tech that people who are primarily in it for the e-peen enhancement make terrible communities. CoD being a great example. That doesn't matter if you're EA and just looking to cash in but I don't think UWE wants to go that route.
You're right that PC gaming feels like it's on a downward slope, but do we really make things better by going along with that? The original NS was a cult hit for going against the grain.
Just some thoughts, I don't really know either way.
Just an option with playerstats in the main menu, only to be viewed by the clients.
i'll give you a example on this.
Example 1 : skulk #1 bites marine 2 times then skulk #2 does the final bite. in this game atm, skulk #2 takes all the credit.
Example 2 : starcraft 1 player creates a new account to fight bots to gain a great record. (i have taken part in these un honourable games where host puts 8 vs 1 comp stomp matches to gain wins)
Example 3 : payday the heist, he lower then rank 100, kick him.
you'll have to devise a system that truely can measure the skill of a player or whats there to stop them from just spectating then all of sudden decides to join the team that has gained control of the whole map and takes credit for something he barely contributed to.
i say it would be best not to base it on wins/loses of game but based on med pack dropped on player, nano shields placement on marine under attack, ammo dropped on player with low ammo when requested etc. basically, putting down on paper if the commander is known to help the player, a rating of how fast the commander is to drop something after player requested it, how quickly commander responsed to "based under attack" messages etc.
Sun Tzu : To lift an autumn hair is no sign of great strength;
to see the sun and moon is no sign of sharp sight;
to hear the noise of thunder is no sign of a quick ear.
basically the relevance of that quote is , whats to stop people from stacking teams or only joining the team with veterans and good players and avoiding the side with new and less skilled players. stats are great on games with 1 vs 1 where but side's had equal power and won the battle through skill. but when a game like natural selection 2 where its very team based and your success is tied to the mometum of success of the team how can you really measure skill if the stats only state wins and loses or kills to deaths. the gorge won't have a great record then and might deter the use of such a vital support class.
Please no ranking, unlocks, hats, achievments, crafting, trading, etc.
Please no ranking, unlocks, hats, achievments, crafting, trading, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Achievements have been discussed before and are fine if they try to promote teamwork. And TF2 doesn't have a ranking system.
Ranking systems are fine if the game uses it well and doesn't give higher ranking players an unfair advantage. Which shouldn't be the case because this isn't battlefield or a f2p game, all the game modifiers are up to the commander.
I'm fine with a little bit of rank elitism, generally people who play with a higher ranking person end up wanting to play more to catch up to their level and surpass them. Slight cosmetic milestone unlocks generally give a greater deal of satisfaction as well, like the marine variants seen in the 'meet the fade' video.
Even if it comes after 1.0 I'd enjoy seeing this sort of ranking system.
Why does every FPS seems to need an xp system nowadays ? NS is a team-based game, if you do well your team will win, and not you will get a fancy gun ...
If it is just a rank, why not but how will you determine who "won", of course the commander did not score a lot of kills, but his role is however crucial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
^ this +infinite!!!!!!!!! and beyond
NO RANK!
BAD BAD BAD!
This isn't COD!
/endrage
basic problem with k/d w/l and score-based rankings: it can be abused and it does not reflect the environment you play in (e.g. pub vs gathers).
still, i bet some person will introduce a mod for this, which will run on certain servers and there will be no way to prevent this from happening anyway.
well, the rank could be something neutral like hours of actual gameplay (not counting ready room ofc) but that could also encourage afk-ers. maybe only count minutes where the player did at least press X different buttons or whatever. something people don't expect, so they are unlikely to abuse it.
Some sort of reward system (im not saying ranks anymore lol) besides achievements would benefit the sales of the game allot imo.
^ this x999999
Take Killing Floor, it hit the 1.1 million sold mark a few weeks back. Why? Cous players had reasons to return to it every time they finished a game.
NS2 has a very healthy start with working SDK's and dedicated server support and it would be shame if it dies a horrid death after 6 months.
Dwelling in the past has never been healthy for a game, specially nowadays. Achievements//Ranks//Perks in combination with event DLC etc are systems that have proven that they make players return to games long after the release date.
Time will tell I guess. :D
What is wrong with simply earning a reputation for being a good player? In the NS days I was not heavily into the clan scene, but after playing it a couple of hours a week for a while I began to work out who were the good players, the average players and the occasional players.
'Skill' in is a lot more nuanced in ns than in other fps games, and therefore hard to fairly represent through cold stats. you maybe ###### at aiming, but be a communicator who is highly map aware. you may be a crappy skulk, but a devastating fade (me - though not in ns2.. yet ;)). that's the great strength of the game: There is a role for everybody - you don't have to be a faultless quicksilver to have fun.
eg Commander beeing the last rank iv you played more then 800 hours as marine.
Too much stats wanking.
Maybe I just dont understand the ranking system and personally FPS games which have had any kind of achievement, ranking (game side), leveling systems have been bad FPS games and not fun. I have played BF 3 and I hated the leveling and ranking system so much. Alltought the whole game is full of ######. Was my first BF-serie and last, wont ever by that kind of ######, but this is little off topic.
Anyway, ranking system would only make carebears/pros to care about their personal stats and forget the teamwork. It wouldnt give any reasons to go back to rise your ranking, wtf dude?? You come back to play because you want to relax and you can only relax if you are enjoying the game, not because you are increasing your E-PENIS, none care your E-PENIS. Dont break the good community with this kind of ######, it would only make selfish players. Just like in BF 3. BF3 community is soooo bad.
I play the game also regardless, but I also want to think about how a reward system would work for NS2. Who knows...we might come up with something that's actually better then whats currently out there.