NS2 design decision log

FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds EntertainmentSan Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,847Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer admin
edited April 2011 in NS2 General Discussion
See the latest thinking and decisions
Hey everyone,

As a way to keep our team up to date with the latest thinking on NS2 design, I started this document. I thought as long as I was going to share it with them, I should share it with all of you also.
Post edited by Unknown User on
Charlie Cleveland
Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
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Comments

  • CerebralCerebral Join Date: 2003-06-25 Member: 17689Posts: 322Members
    edited April 2011
    I like the idea. I'm getting a permissions error though.

    Works now. Thanks!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    #terror
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,847Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer admin
    I updated the link, try now. Dang Google Docs.
    Charlie Cleveland
    Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • tyrael64tyrael64 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70551Posts: 112Members
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Posts: 1,014Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2011
    Thanks!

    "Gorge suckling on res nozzle" idea would be pretty funny to see in action. Alien comm: "we need more teat sucking! Get to it gorges!"

    But seriously, it's nice to see some of the thought process going on and why things wouldn't/would work.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Game-SlothGame-Sloth Join Date: 2011-01-06 Member: 76371Posts: 45Members
    edited April 2011
    Are these ideas open for discussion?

    QUOTE
    Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers. Going to try having infestation created from a “pustule” that creates it, which can be destroyed with regular weapons. It will have about 400 health (2x health of egg).

    If you insist of a early counter to DI, allow the switch-axe to be used as a slow weed whacker. This would mean that a marine would have to cover his team mate while he is taking out the DI. Instead of a "pustule" what about a pulsating vein like structure. I just do not want to feel like I am running around the face of a 10yr old with an acme problem. For some reason I keep thinking of the light sensitive flying pizza things that stuck to the walls on Star Trek.

    I am just worried unless care is given, Marines could simple run to hallways and corridors and ninja out entire rooms with a few kamikaze runs.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • LORFCASTERLORFCASTER Join Date: 2010-06-13 Member: 72049Posts: 54Members
    edited April 2011
    "Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers. Going to try having infestation created from a 'pustule' that creates it, which can be destroyed with regular weapons. It will have about 400 health (2x health of egg)."


    If im understanding this idea correctly, it's the same(or similar) way creep is spread in star craft 2 ?
    That actually seems like an interesting idea, the 'pustule' (as in starcraft 2) could be vulnerable as it is being constructed. But once it has 'grown' it becomes invisible/invulnerable(?) requiring the marine commander to use a scan to reveal it. Would be a nice way to start getting the observatory/scan feature used more often (during this stage of the beta)
    Maybe a silly question but...would that be breaking any copy right laws (if it does end up being done the same way)??

    Random idea, if the above is accurate....The 'pustule' or 'infestation pod' could slowly move around it's own infestation patch (much like whip walking) as a defense mechanism when it is taking damage. Marines would have a hard time taking out entire areas of infestation from a distance with ranged weapons plus minimal scanning. Of course the right speed would be found through testing so it's just enough movement to force the marine(s) to focus their aim.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    Pustule idea is good, but I suggest you make it so that the further back into the DI the node is, the tougher it is.

    This would probably be good for DI in general, that the stuff further in is harder to clear out, so attacking the edges is easier but less effective, while attacking the centre could kill off more but takes longer.
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Posts: 1,014Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I like the pustule idea, but it will probably need tweaking. If you keep it at 400 health, it's going to be far easier to just use a shotgun to get rid of DI than the flamethrower...that's what I would be doing (two shotgun blasts vs 1.5 clips of flame...which would you chose?). The health needs to be adjusted where it will take regular weapons much longer than the flamethrower, otherwise the flamethrower will lose it's primary use. Perhaps give the flamethrower extra bonus damage against DI so it kills it faster.
  • ShiloriusShilorius Join Date: 2011-01-14 Member: 77445Posts: 394Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    As I posted in the Chat next to the doc, here is my Idea for the Pustules:

    What about Aliens could "research" with 2nd or 3rd Hive or so, that they can build Infestation without pustules?
    So that the flamer don't loose its purpose.

    Maybe in combination with this:
    QUOTE
    If you insist of a early counter to DI, allow the switch-axe to be used as a slow weed whacker. This would mean that a marine would have to cover his team mate while he is taking out the DI.

    ...so that the Pustule can only be killed with the switch axe.
    This will prevent shotgunners from running around and killing random infestation patches.

    (For consitency: Maybe the Pustule has a very hard carapace so that bullets can't hurt it. But the marine can slide the axe under it and do damage this way (maybe with the 2nd axe attack... or so) )
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  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Posts: 1,366Members, Constellation
    edited April 2011
    QUOTE
    Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers. Going to try having infestation created from a “pustule” that creates it, which can be destroyed with regular weapons. It will have about 400 health (2x health of egg).

    Will this be something static that the KharaaComm drops, like the creep nodes in SC2, or a moving AI entity that the commander can direct? If it's the latter, why not give Drifters a "deployed-mode" where they cannot hover but are forced to crawl, and spread infestation in their wake?

    QUOTE
    Railgun will be great against Fades, but they won’t be able to chase them down - they will need to ambush them.

    How do you ambush something that can teleport instantly? This seems like the farthest-from-intuitive weapon that should be taking down Fades. I figured Flamethrowers would be the weapon to deal with lifeforms that are too fast to shoot at (Fades, Lerk).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory


    nicojones
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    edited April 2011
    I assume it would be 'wait for the fade to teleport in and attack something else, then shoot it'.

    It can either run away or die.

    Although it is a bit odd that the sniper rifle (I think the railgun is a sniper yes?) is good against fades.

    I mean precison weapons would logically be best against support classes like gorges and lerks, by virtue of their precision.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    On the Infestation Pustule idea, have Flamethrowers cause immediate DI shrinkage when the Pustule's on fire. Destroying the Pustule with any other weapon will just cause the DI to shrink at a standard rate and prevent further regrowth. Perhaps flames will cause a quicker infestation shrinkage than the standard rate.

    That way, Flamethrowers aren't useless against DI compared to high damage dealing weapons.
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  • McGlaspieMcGlaspie www.team156.com Lord MuckyMuck of the Programmers Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 73044Posts: 828Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Community Dev Team
    I don't like the pustule idea at all. This will just exacerbate the already ridiculously overpowered Doom Cannon (aka, shotgun). Also, this would make DI inline with Starcraft creep, which doesn't exactly help NS2 in my mind. Random Bloke thinks (new comer to NS2): "Oh, yay, they just ripped off SC2 creep. How original."

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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (McGlaspie @ Apr 27 2011, 12:57 AM) »
    I don't like the pustule idea at all. This will just exacerbate the already ridiculously overpowered Doom Cannon (aka, shotgun). Also, this would make DI inline with Starcraft creep, which doesn't exactly help NS2 in my mind. Random Bloke thinks (new comer to NS2): "Oh, yay, they just ripped off SC2 creep. How original."


    You realise it already works like that, only you can't see or shoot the centre bit?

  • Stele007Stele007 Join Date: 2004-07-23 Member: 30063Posts: 161Members
    This is really cool. I like seeing the ideas you're tossing out.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,482Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    edited April 2011
    On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...

    • This way you wont have the problem of an invisible system (behind the scenes)
    • When the Hive or CC goes down, the round ends. Instead of having this second target (the main room resnodes) messing with the gameplay.
    • It makes the Hive and CC even more important for game play purposes
    • Gameplay: Having more rooms for resource nodes in between the main tech point rooms, opening up more tactics on a map



    It might be completely different from NS, but hell NS2 ain't NS now is it. One thing which speak against this is the fact you can't take out their resource production anymore by taking out the nodes in the main rooms. But this is a cause of a problem, which introduces a smaller problem if you weigh the two against each other IMHO :)
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • BitPonBitPon Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75104Posts: 69Members
    edited April 2011
    QUOTE
    On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...

    This way you wont have the problem of an invisible system (behind the scenes)
    When the Hive or CC goes down, the round ends. instead of having this problem of losing the last resource node.
    It makes the Hive and CC even more important for game play purposes
    Gameplay: Having more rooms for resource nodes in between the main tech point rooms, opening up more tactics on a map



    It might be completely different from NS, but hell NS2 ain't NS now is it :P


    This makes a lot of sense... +1

    I especially like that CC/Hives become more important with this solution. It would probably get rid of the strategy where 2nd CC is recycled after main being upgraded - a strategy that shouldn't make sense IMO.

    EDIT
    Then again... this strategy might actually be interesting once we get tier3 tech. Kind of an early all-in build...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Posts: 1,366Members, Constellation
    edited April 2011
    QUOTE (PsiWarp @ Apr 26 2011, 07:46 PM) »
    On the Infestation Pustule idea, have Flamethrowers cause immediate DI shrinkage when the Pustule's on fire. Destroying the Pustule with any other weapon will just cause the DI to shrink at a standard rate and prevent further regrowth. Perhaps flames will cause a quicker infestation shrinkage than the standard rate.

    That way, Flamethrowers aren't useless against DI compared to high damage dealing weapons.

    Assuming these Pustules are immobile tumors and not moving entities, if being 'On Fire' prevented the regeneration of Energy for structures in the same way it prevents the regeneration of Adrenaline for players...
    Pustules can be given an Energy Pool and an auto-cast ability that uses said Energy to maintain the DI. Then Flamethrowers will cause Infestation dependent on that pustule to recede before the pustule is destroyed.

    Although you could still just destroy the pustule with any other weapon and problem is solved, probably quicker. So all other weapons are to become as effective against Infestation as Flamethrowers?

    QUOTE (Kouji_San)
    On the subject of the last resource node, why not change the concept completely. By removing the resource nodes from tech point rooms and instead have the Hive and CC itself produces resources at the same rate the initial restower did...

    SOLVED
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory


    nicojones
  • QuovatisQuovatis Team Inversion Join Date: 2010-01-26 Member: 70321Posts: 1,014Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2011
    Or just keep everything else the same and give hives/cc the same res flow as a harvester/extractor. Change the res "tick" frequency of all nodes from 1 every 12 sec to 1 every 20 seconds to compensate for the extra res flow. This formula would produce the same res flow as the current system with a team controlling 3 res nodes and 2 tech points (a rather typical scenario for a game).
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Posts: 977Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    that was neat but i gave up with all the entered/left google doc spam in the chat. it steals focus from the text box while you are typing.
  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Posts: 977Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    also, on the idea of postules, i saw that you were thinking of having the gorge drop the postules. why not have a gorge drop all infestation? bring back the necessity of a gorge.

    maybe.
  • XerondXerond Undefined Join Date: 2004-07-09 Member: 29817Posts: 202Members, Constellation
    edited April 2011
    Why not allow players to contribute their personal resources to the team. Make some type of conversion cost: 3 to 1, 5 to 1. And that way a player with excess can help the team. Point the gameplay incentives towards personal resources, so that when a player makes a good choice,(kill, build, etc. ) that would also synergize teamplay.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • JaweeseJaweese Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58356Posts: 152Members
    edited April 2011
    QUOTE (Xerond @ Apr 26 2011, 09:25 PM) »
    Why not allow players to contribute their personal resources to the team. Make some type of conversion cost: 3 to 1, 5 to 1. And that way a player with excess can help the team. Point the gameplay incentives towards personal resources, so that when a player makes a good choice,(kill, build, etc. ) that would also synergize teamplay.

    This could work if the conversion rate varied based on how many players were in the team. Otherwise it wouldn't scale well.

    But then again, if it's based on how many players are on the team, that would make it a bit... exploitable.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,482Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    edited April 2011
    QUOTE (Tig @ Apr 27 2011, 01:19 AM) »
    that was neat but i gave up with all the entered/left google doc spam in the chat. it steals focus from the text box while you are typing.

    Heh, I had to look at the page (and then maximize this chat thingy) to see what you're talking about. There be chat in there... hmmkay...
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • TigTig Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71674Posts: 977Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Apr 26 2011, 08:42 PM) »
    Heh, I had to look at the page (and then maximize this chat thingy) to see what you're talking about. There be chat in there... hmmkay...


    i am a google docs noob so yeah, probably.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,482Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    Oh, I was as surprised as you actually image

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  • PaiSandPaiSand Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33487Posts: 418Members
    And how about using a flower (with the plant) instead of a "pustule"?

    Something like:
    https://picasaweb.google.com/paisand/DropBo...feat=directlink

    I have no idea of the name of that plant/flower, but looks good for the game.
    image
  • KuBaNKuBaN Join Date: 2002-11-16 Member: 8979Posts: 1,366Members, Constellation
    QUOTE
    Team without Extractor or Harvester doesn’t get any more resources and may not ever be able to build another.
    - This really shouldn’t be happening often - if it is, I’m thinking it’s map problem or possibly a problem with the base extractor/harvester being too snipable. Leaving it alone.

    This feels like the core issue. Extractors/Harvesters go down too fast:

    One Skulk can patrol the whole map relatively unhindered (vents) and take out any ResTowers faster than you can place them. A single uninterrupted Skulk can destroy an RT in 40 seconds. Theoretically it should take two Skulks 20 seconds to take down an RT (13 seconds for 3, and 10 seconds for 4), but it usually takes even less as any Skulk can distract multiple Marines while the others continue attacking the RT. If 4 Skulks are attacking a ResTower, it's Gone in 10 Seconds. To put things in perspective, it takes 9 seconds for a Marine to RUN from MarineStart to Overlook (despite the suggested travel time of 15 seconds for a 1-5 Tech Point map, which would further exacerbate the problem).

    True in standard RTSs it probably takes less time for a comparable structure to be destroyed, but you also have considerably more units in these games to go around defending structures. My point is, it takes 4 minutes for a ResTower just to reclaim the 20 TRes spent to drop the damned thing, and most don't survive TO that point, much less PAST it, so there seems to be very little incentive for dropping RTs. The moment they're dropped it becomes a hopeless uphill battle just to keep them afloat.

    So why not just buff up the HP of RTs (and slow down the repair/regen rate of structures to compensate for the increased difficulty of destroying structures)?
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory


    nicojones
  • jkflipflopjkflipflop Join Date: 2010-10-13 Member: 74423Posts: 162Members
    Have you considered giving the aliens their unique flavor back by getting rid of commander and giving build duties back to the gorge?
  • craecrae Join Date: 2005-01-30 Member: 39035Posts: 96Members
    >Marines need way to deal with DI before flamethrowers.

    How about allowing DI to take damage from the GL and/or SG. Another possibility is to decrease the DI HP the further it is from a hive.
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