Should whips be put into tier 2?

NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
Seeing how effective they are, and how tier 1 marines struggle against structures, should aliens really have whips, crags and hydras all available from the get go? I know there's the problem with upgrades depending on the whip, but I'm sure that can be taken care of.
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Comments

  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,566Members
    It would help at this stage of beta, but hopefully when DI gets implemented, all non-Hive, Harvester and Hydra structures will require DI to be placed, at which point the Whip can return to Tier 1 with minimal harm to Marine early game.

    Unless of course, Whips at the frontline being possible with Uproot ability.
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  • _Thresh__Thresh_ Join Date: 2008-01-11 Member: 63385Posts: 380Members
    edited December 2010
    might add some immediate relevancy for early gorging also

    EDIT: doesnt take much hive mass at this stage though
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    no, regular whips are fine. it's the upgraded whips that should be tier 2.
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  • AltF4AltF4 Join Date: 2003-11-11 Member: 22587Posts: 61Members
    make it stronger and limit it to one in the game
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  • Lemming JesusLemming Jesus Join Date: 2010-04-13 Member: 71385Posts: 240Members
    QUOTE (AltF4 @ Dec 7 2010, 08:45 PM) »
    make it stronger and limit it to one in the game


    A joke, right?
  • yourbonesakinyourbonesakin Join Date: 2005-08-06 Member: 57682Posts: 573Members
    QUOTE (AltF4 @ Dec 7 2010, 10:45 PM) »
    make it stronger and limit it to one in the game

    Worked for SC2.

    ...

    ...

    Bwah hahahaha!
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  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Posts: 1,024Members
    Would it really matter since aliens can get 4th hive in 70seconds ?
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  • OPIEOPIE Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8343Posts: 139Members
    QUOTE
    no, regular whips are fine. it's the upgraded whips that should be tier 2.


    Agreed. Can't make the whips tier two because it's the structure that allows aliens to upgrade their Melee attacks. Marines have access to tier 1 upgrades, weapons and armor and so must the aliens. I would say make the whips upgrade tier 2 and also make it 15 plasma instead of 10. That extra 5 will make the commander think about upgrading all his whips early in the game given thats when resources are most vital. Will encourage more team work and early gorging knowing their defensive structures are not as strong.
  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Posts: 391Members
    QUOTE
    no, regular whips are fine. it's the upgraded whips that should be tier 2.


    I completely agree, whips, while being somewhat annoying and spamful at the beginning of the round are still vital to the alien team and alien commander. Upgrading to mature whip should make it a lot better since then marines won't have as much of a hard time and also maybe the build/upgrade time to mature whip should take longer.
    image
  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Posts: 391Members
    QUOTE
    no, regular whips are fine. it's the upgraded whips that should be tier 2.


    I completely agree, whips, while being somewhat annoying and spamful at the beginning of the round are still vital to the alien team and alien commander. Upgrading to mature whip should make it a lot better since then marines won't have as much of a hard time and also maybe the build/upgrade time to mature whip should take longer.
    image
  • Heroman117Heroman117 Join Date: 2010-07-28 Member: 73268Posts: 391Members
    QUOTE
    no, regular whips are fine. it's the upgraded whips that should be tier 2.


    I completely agree, whips, while being somewhat annoying and spamful at the beginning of the round are still vital to the alien team and alien commander. Upgrading to mature whip should make it a lot better since then marines won't have as much of a hard time and also maybe the build/upgrade time to mature whip should take longer.
    image
  • VeNeMVeNeM Join Date: 2002-07-13 Member: 928Posts: 1,240Members
    it wouldnt be so bad if marines could get shotguns without massive upgrading..
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  • SN.WolfSN.Wolf Join Date: 2010-03-29 Member: 71115Posts: 815Members
    QUOTE (VeNeM @ Dec 8 2010, 08:01 AM) »
    it wouldnt be so bad if marines could get shotguns without massive upgrading..

    Agreed:

    Shotguns where always available from the get go in NS1 and where usually dropped by commander if/when the marine team encountered there first fade of the game or res flow was adequate. Maybe after all the game balance is done it will be made a tier 1 weapon that can be purchased but a bit more expensive. Then raises another question, if the new HA can sport dual mini-guns then will the jet packer sport an unknown HMG equal to combat onos?
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Posts: 2,354Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Community Dev Team
    people, try second fire of the pistol. if you aim at the bottom of the whip it dies sooo fast.
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  • FocusedWolfFocusedWolf Join Date: 2005-01-09 Member: 34258Posts: 1,260Members
    QUOTE (SN.Wolf @ Dec 8 2010, 03:05 PM) »
    Then raises another question, if the new HA can sport dual mini-guns then will the jet packer sport an unknown HMG equal to combat onos?


    There won't be a hmg, so the only difference between a jetpacker and a non-jetpacker is flight (and maybe an armor boost). We can assume that the amount of damage associated with the rifle will be tweaked down the road (maybe even give it 100 round magazines at L2), but otherwise it will be jetpackers relying on standard weapons like rifle, shotgun, gl, flamer.

    This way the heavy will be more important, if not 100% vital to deal with oni + hive killing. I mean killing a hive with the current flamer is quite a task... it takes forever... so obviously the minigun will be the hive slayers of the game.
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  • Dictator93Dictator93 Join Date: 2008-12-21 Member: 65833Posts: 653Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Aren't whips going to have the ability to be moved later in the game? Like be moved by thee alien commander (get up on their little tentacles).
  • SturmwindSturmwind Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72589Posts: 118Members
    QUOTE (Asraniel @ Dec 8 2010, 10:15 PM) »
    people, try second fire of the pistol. if you aim at the bottom of the whip it dies sooo fast.


    Cool, if that should really work. Didn't knew that there is a second fire pistol mode now. Live and learn, live and learn .... ;-)

    I'll try that. Cheers for the info!




    @ general issues

    I know, game ballance is crappy at best atm. This however is due, to the fact, that not every weapon/upgrade has been implemented so far, e.g. exo/heavy-armor, onos etc.

    So my suggestion for a fun-maximised current-patch-based game-play-experience

    •  optimise ballance according to the current working "in game" mechanisms
    Read the following remarks under this aspect....

    @ shotguns

    • -1 to "get shotguns without massive upgrading...." 
    @ whips

    • +1 to "upgraded whips should be tier 2"
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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,616Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer admin
    If you are moving as a team (albeit small, given games are usually 8-12 players atm) a whip and crag combo can be taken down very, very quickly. Three marines using alt-fire pistol will bring th whip down in seconds, even with a crag behind it. Also, shotguns do not need massive upgrading. It's possible to research them initially, before expanding, and have them out within minutes of game start.

    I suppose my opinion is that once NS2 starts being stable enough for more players, these structures will not seem so tough anymore, as marines will be able to hunt in packs.
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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Posts: 1,883Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2010
    Hmm, I sort of disagree. It actually takes about 3 clips of a LMG to take out the Whips... not sure about pistol. It feels poor - not only because I don't want to spend that much time firing into something that does not feel exciting or satisfying or right, but also because it wastes all your ammo.

    Does it make sense that a seemingly less powerful weapon (Ok, that is debatable - I'm not talking about gun expertise here) is more effective? Will people 'naturally' get that as new players? No.

    I do not think that (for marines) these weapons should be used for killing structures.

    I think the flame thrower (as an - covert sneak - attack) and ARC (as an - overt weakness - attack) would be better for the game. Being very powerful, but also having real weaknesses.

    # The flame thrower being slow turning whilst firing, a delayed explosion after you run around on fire for a few seconds before dying, a real weakness from rear attack.
    # The ARC being slow, loud and having to move a distance before it can reach it's target.
    # Making the sentries really powerful from the front as well, another strong/weak characteristic.

    These sort of things would define the marines a whole lot better, and all part of a possible answer to the bigger picture.

    It is really quite tedious, and feels out of place when you are all stood round these structures doing what cave men would do - hack at it with a sharp instrument - in a futuristic game. Building is Ok, but that does not take that long (depending on the importance of the building) and 'feels' right.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444Posts: 1,616Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer admin
    QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 9 2010, 11:37 AM) »
    Hmm, I sort of disagree. It actually takes about 3 clips of a LMG to take out the Whips... not sure about pistol.


    Give it a try, alt-fire pistol is extremely powerful. Perfectly accurate and ~20 damage per shot. While the ROF is lower than the Rifle, every round hits the target so the DPS is much, much higher. Structures melt away to it, especially with a small group of marines doing it.

    I agree that it is a little odd that the pistol is effective like this, but I suppose it is a little bit like how pistols were the 'sniping' weapon of choice in NS1. While not realistic, it is a fun gameplay element. Instead of being a sidearm, the pistol becomes a weapon for specific circumstances: Long range shooting, high DPS bursts, structures... And not just something you pull out when your rifle magazine is empty.

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  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Posts: 1,883Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Well I'll definitely have a go in future :)
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Posts: 4,160Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited December 2010
    feels like alt-fire pistol has a small damage bonus vs buildings.

    QUOTE (Runteh @ Dec 8 2010, 08:37 PM) »
    Hmm, I sort of disagree. It actually takes about 3 clips of a LMG to take out the Whips... not sure about pistol. It feels poor - not only because I don't want to spend that much time firing into something that does not feel exciting or satisfying or right, but also because it wastes all your ammo.

    Does it make sense that a seemingly less powerful weapon (Ok, that is debatable - I'm not talking about gun expertise here) is more effective? Will people 'naturally' get that as new players? No.

    I do not think that (for marines) these weapons should be used for killing structures.

    I think the flame thrower (as an - covert sneak - attack) and ARC (as an - overt weakness - attack) would be better for the game. Being very powerful, but also having real weaknesses.

    # The flame thrower being slow turning whilst firing, a delayed explosion after you run around on fire for a few seconds before dying, a real weakness from rear attack.
    # The ARC being slow, loud and having to move a distance before it can reach it's target.
    # Making the sentries really powerful from the front as well, another strong/weak characteristic.

    These sort of things would define the marines a whole lot better, and all part of a possible answer to the bigger picture.

    It is really quite tedious, and feels out of place when you are all stood round these structures doing what cave men would do - hack at it with a sharp instrument - in a futuristic game. Building is Ok, but that does not take that long (depending on the importance of the building) and 'feels' right.



    that's because the hitreg on the main whip body is messed up, and probably 1/2 of shots don't register. Especially if the whip is attacking. If you shoot at the base, though, it only takes like 1 and a half clips of LMG to kill a whip.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (EEK)
    Don't assume that because I said something it means I actually was thinking that the core of the sun was going to be replaced with hot dogs.
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