Building Buildings

TSSTSS Join Date: 2010-05-11 Member: 71716Posts: 151Members
Since everybody's making threads for the most obvious of issues thought i'd throw a gameplay discussion in the mix. I had some real fun last night, since i'm able to play now since the first patch. Shot me some skulks, found out that marines win if they get grenade launchers and lerks can effectively gas the marine spawn, even got a kill in or 2.

The lag, hitreg bug and sideways skulks i don't care for. Hell they add to the fun, you never know what you'll actually hit! But the only thing i really felt was missing, was the fact that marines can't build buildings. I really miss seeing an armory drop and every marine running towards it to build it like crazy. Or the fact that sometimes, a marine was smart and stealthy enough to reach an out of the way resnode, which i can drop a tower on (the MACs i sent out keep getting killed very very very easely). I was very dissapointed when i tried to drop a resource tower across the map, and it woulnd't drop untill the MAC got there (he got chewed on the way).

after a few games the marines automatically ended up putting a 2 man escort on the MAC's. in a 6v6, this isn't a good way of distributing resources.

I Love NS2. Every aspect of it that's ingame so far. Except the above. If you'd ask me, what made NS1 "NS" for me, was the fact that it was a shooter in which you could build buildings. Currently, NS2 is a shooter in which the commander can build buildings, and your just a grunt who's only good for shootn bullits. that's boring. Shooting used to be a means to an end, now it's all ya got. If your outside the hive, with no MAC near, might aswell run in because you can't set up a siege base.

I'm not afraid of change, though i am afraid of bad change. And after having played a grunt and a commander, i do have to say, this'll be a bad change. I'd much muhc prefer it if phase tech was put back in (so we can drop buildings where ever we want) and the kharaa commander gets the same. It could work through "spores that have been released into the air gather to form the basic structure to grow out of which gorges can then nourish". While the marines would all be able to build, only gorges with healspray can build on the other side. Simply because of legacy reasons: if you want to build as an alien, go gorge. Thats part of NS aswell :p

Just my 2 cents on the matter. Oh, and if marines can build but i just couldn't see it because of the lag, i apologize and make this into a "can't drop buildings whereever we want" thread.
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Comments

  • bazookabazooka Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47847Posts: 5Members
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Posts: 184Members
    You're calling this a bad change without seeing the entire game, it's far too early to suggest that they should remove, change or edit things for an alpha test based on speculation.




  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Posts: 46Members
    Its not too early to start discussing it. If you don't talk about it now, it will be much harder to balance later if a change does need to be made. The earlier things are brought up the easier it will be to balance.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,203Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    edited July 2010
    I think this is an extremely significant change on its own, and deserves discussing as soon as possible. I'll just quote myself to show my view on it:
    QUOTE (Align @ Jul 30 2010, 12:44 PM) »
    it sucks that marines now have nothing to do other than kill aliens or defend weldbots. One guy (you, if you went ninja) being defenceless while building did a lot to add tension and teamwork.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    edited July 2010
    We don't say that a construction worker isn't building something because they are using a digger or robot, rather than their barehands. How is it different in NS2? The bot is a tool and will be the focus for the marines when they are building. In fact it's going to add more tension since we need to protect the little guy along the whole route.

    Maybe I'm missing something...in NS1 'building' meant facing a structure and holding E. No animations, no tools - nothing.

    In NS2 we do not have freedom to run about while the bases are autoconstructed (unless the Aliens are very very stupid). We still have to go where the commander wants to build something; we still have to stay at and defend the construction location until building is completed; plus this time we have to be ready to escort the bot from it's starting location all the way to the build location and during the build.

    The builder bot gives marines more responsibilities not less. It demands better team work and better commanding.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Dank McShwaggerDank McShwagger Join Date: 2009-06-10 Member: 67784Posts: 324Members
    I agree with OP.

    Maybe make it so that marines can only assist a buildbot to make the structure go up faster but are unable to build at all if there's not a build bot present?

    I think the whole idea behind the buildbot is to give the commanders a more active role and letting the marines take care of the dirty work.
  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Posts: 2,533Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This is a valid concern / opinion at this stage in the game; because, this element is fully implemented and functioning.

    The fact is, I want to build things. Currently, the game is restricting players in a way that is not fun. The MACs are fine. However, a user should be able to build a structure if he or she chooses to do so. Playtests show that gamers do not like feeling restricted and that is how it feels right now.

    Go listen to the commentary for Half-Life 2: Episode One. Several times they will mention that they tweaked a game mechanic so that the user could take a more active role in solving a puzzle or furthering the story.

    Of course, this is my opinion. I won't be dogmatic and start a new thread that ends with the words, "threatens the survival of NS2" or anything over this...

    Cheers,
    Cody
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Posts: 184Members
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (DarkATi @ Jul 30 2010, 05:44 PM) »
    This is a valid concern / opinion at this stage in the game; because, this element is fully implemented and functioning.

    The fact is, I want to build things. Currently, the game is restricting players in a way that is not fun. The MACs are fine. However, a user should be able to build a structure if he or she chooses to do so. Playtests show that gamers do not like feeling restricted and that is how it feels right now.

    Go listen to the commentary for Half-Life 2: Episode One. Several times they will mention that they tweaked a game mechanic so that the user could take a more active role in solving a puzzle or furthering the story.

    Of course, this is my opinion. I won't be dogmatic and start a new thread that ends with the words, "threatens the survival of NS2" or anything over this...

    Cheers,
    Cody


    So you think that by forcing a player in your team to walk up to an object and hold E for 15 seconds gives them MORE freedom?

    Instead of 2 marines making a perimeter around a build-bot and defending it from the alien swarm, considerably more involved and requiring vastly more coordination and teamwork than simply pressing 'e'.

    I think you've got it ass backwards friend.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • Killpo1Killpo1 Join Date: 2009-11-13 Member: 69373Posts: 66Members
    They could do some pretty cool stuff with the MAC, if they ever get dynamic infestation in it could be one of the key things *have like a flamethrower of chem thrower to destroy infestation* and also have it be able to weld doors and such, they should just allow you to put in a squad with some pc players and have it follow them, and maybe have a dialogue box option to tell it what to do. Also maybe be able to upgrade it with more features, so basically the MAC won't be something cumbersome and annoying you have to escort around but something you want to bring with you because of its many uses. Also maybe a small illuminating device to in case infestation takes out lights.
  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Posts: 2,533Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 11:48 AM) »
    So you think that by forcing a player in your team to walk up to an object and hold E for 15 seconds gives them MORE freedom?

    Instead of 2 marines making a perimeter around a build-bot and defending it from the alien swarm, considerably more involved and requiring vastly more coordination and teamwork than simply pressing 'e'.

    I think you've got it ass backwards friend.


    I don't think you understood me correctly. No one is forcing anyone to build. If you want to leave it up to the MACs, go for it. I want to build stuff!

    Look at it this way:

    Marines can't build structures:
    Players who always let MACs build are :D
    Players who want to build for themselves are :(

    Marines can build structures along with MACs:
    Players who always let MACs build are :D
    Players who want to build for themselves are :D

    The second situation is a win-win, the first leaves certain players feeling :(

    Cheers,
    Cody
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Posts: 184Members
    QUOTE (DarkATi @ Jul 30 2010, 06:07 PM) »
    I don't think you understood me correctly. No one is forcing anyone to build. If you want to leave it up to the MACs, go for it. I want to build stuff!

    Look at it this way:

    Marines can't build structures:
    Players who always let MACs build are :D
    Players who want to build for themselves are :(

    Marines can build structures along with MACs:
    Players who always let MACs build are :D
    Players who want to build for themselves are :D

    The second situation is a win-win, the first leaves certain players feeling :(

    Cheers,
    Cody


    There is no need to have both, you can't please both crowds. I've said it plenty of times this is not about giving or taking away from the marine on the ground it's about making the commanders game more interesting.

    In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.

    I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.

    Deal with it.
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Posts: 354Members
    While I agree we should spend some time talking about it, can't really make an informed decision on the new build process until the game is a little more stable.

    I look foward to stalking the bots as a skulk, as a marine I think it will be interesting following one and protecting it. Building as a marine was a pretty big deal in NS1, but I think if it does suck it will be obvious and they will change it.
  • TrCTrC Join Date: 2008-11-30 Member: 65612Posts: 1,024Members
    "hell I dont know when I hit, adds fun" and someone actually +1, wtf are you playing for. Bugs are bound to be fixed, alpha is a nice sneakpeak to what we might get.
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  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Posts: 2,533Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 12:10 PM) »
    There is no need to have both, you can't please both crowds. I've said it plenty of times this is not about giving or taking away from the marine on the ground it's about making the commanders game more interesting.

    In NS1 everyone hated being the commander, at the start of every game there would be "who wants to comm..." then someone would almost have to forfeit their game in order to do something they disliked. The point of the MACs is to make being a commander more rewarding and exciting.

    I highly doubt it's going to change, UWE is obviously set on this path.

    Deal with it.


    I think that people not wanting to comm was a later development in the life of NS1. In the hay-day of NS1 you had to kick people out of the chair that didn't know what they were doing. Everyone would make a mad dash for the chair at the beginning of the game, etc. People like commanding because it makes them feel special. I have always loved being the commander in NS1.

    I do agree, however - I want the commander to take a more active role in NS2 also.

    Some good suggestions have already been brought up in another thread with ideas on how to maintain marine building alongside MAC builders. I do not think that these ideas must remain mutually exclusive.

    This is my opinion. I want to build in NS2. I realize this may or may not happen. However, I want to voice my opinion loud and clear for the devs and other players to hear and consider.

    Cheers,
    Cody
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Posts: 520Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can agree somewhat with how people enjoy building RTs but also a lot of people die while trying to build them. They are in someway trying to make this game simpler for those who aren't the best at backing away and killing skulks while in the middle of building up an RT, at least now you can stay in front of the Rt protect it and you still did your job of getting that RT up even if you weren't the one to press 'e' for 15 seconds to build it.
    Current Team: Titus - titus | Syknik!
  • SpidernumerounoSpidernumerouno Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14810Posts: 13Members
    I wish marines could also build a structure.

    I wouldn't want to miss out on the sneaking into a hive and building a teleporter.

    Or jetpacking into a vent and sieging the hive, witch meant that you build all sieges to 95% at 1st.

    So I really do hope there will be an option to play NS2 like NS1 was. Meaning:
    -no alien commander,
    -no MACS for marines.
  • DarkATiDarkATi Revelation 22:17 Join Date: 2003-06-20 Member: 17532Posts: 2,533Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Spidernumerouno @ Jul 30 2010, 12:22 PM) »
    I wish marines could also build a structure.

    I wouldn't want to miss out on the sneaking into a hive and building a teleporter.

    Or jetpacking into a vent and sieging the hive, witch meant that you build all sieges to 95% at 1st.

    So I really do hope there will be an option to play NS2 like NS1 was. Meaning:
    -no alien commander,
    -no MACS for marines.


    I wouldn't go this far.

    First of all, there are no teleporters (Phasegates) in NS2. So, that simply won't happen. You can only build a base at tech points now, so that also eliminates the immediate relocation / ninja-basing fun of the old NS1 days.

    Cheers,
    Cody
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Posts: 2,426Members
    ^ Someone can make a mod for that, or simply play NS1.
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Posts: 520Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2010
    Creating an NS1 mod would be a waste of time, I don't really see it working out well, especially it would be on a different engine, would have a different feel entirely, plus it just seems dumb, just go play NS1...
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • SpidernumerounoSpidernumerouno Join Date: 2003-03-23 Member: 14810Posts: 13Members
    Well, an option to play NS2 like NS1 was wouldn't hurt, would it?
  • Taxen0Taxen0 Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73357Posts: 286Members
    Why not add a 'engineering tool' at the marine armory? takes up a slot and allows the marine to build. (maybe even limit other weapon selections)
    and for the aliens the heal spray should work as their 'engineering tool', and is limited by class.
    sounds balanced =)
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  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Posts: 240Members
    edited July 2010
    QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 11:48 AM) »
    So you think that by forcing a player in your team to walk up to an object and hold E for 15 seconds gives them MORE freedom?

    Instead of 2 marines making a perimeter around a build-bot and defending it from the alien swarm, considerably more involved and requiring vastly more coordination and teamwork than simply pressing 'e'.

    I think you've got it ass backwards friend.

    Two marines defending another human who's building is far more coordinated than two people camping in the corner staring at a bot.

    I want an active gameplay role, not a passive one.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Posts: 520Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE (Stardog @ Jul 30 2010, 01:32 PM) »
    Two marines defending another human who's building is far more coordinated than two people camping in the corner staring at a bot.

    I want an active gameplay experience, not a passive one.



    So instead of having 1 marine watching over 1 bot and having 2 other marines out in the field destroying a harvester or doing something more useful, you'd much rather have.. 3 guys around an RT... That seems pointless.
    Current Team: Titus - titus | Syknik!
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Posts: 184Members
    QUOTE (Stardog @ Jul 30 2010, 06:32 PM) »
    Two marines defending another human who's building is far more coordinated than two people camping in the corner staring at a bot.

    I want an active gameplay role, not a passive one.


    What?

    How exactly. That makes absolutely no sense at all. A passive role would be the person building the structure.
  • jaminjamin Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63332Posts: 104Members
    QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 06:10 PM) »
    you can't please both crowds.


    He just told you exactly how to please both crowds...

    MACs are the only things that can initiate builds, however marines have the option to assist the MAC to build something faster.

    Simple, done.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Posts: 184Members
    QUOTE (jamin @ Jul 30 2010, 06:44 PM) »
    He just told you exactly how to please both crowds...

    MACs are the only things that can initiate builds, however marines have the option to assist the MAC to build something faster.

    Simple, done.


    There is no point though, why does everyone believe that pressing 'e' on a target is the be all and end all of natural selection. It's not fun and it's not engaging. It's boring and pointless when you can have a robot do it for you whilst you do the fun things like shoot stuff.
  • jaminjamin Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63332Posts: 104Members
    What if I'm a lover, not a fighter?
  • Killpo1Killpo1 Join Date: 2009-11-13 Member: 69373Posts: 66Members
    I think a Marine should be able to assist the bots, but of course that will take their attention away, you could always make it also that you could speed up how fast the bots build by taking manual control over it, like press E on the MAC and it'll bring up a Display allowing you to take manual control and allowing you to build faster, however it'll distract you from your surroundings, could also be applied if their was ever a weapon attached to the MAC also. Another Thought, maybe like a little psp sort of device that a member of the squad has that links up with the squads MAC so say if their was vent he wanted to scope out or a scaffolding above him he wanted to check out he could bring up the MAC hud and then fly up their and scope it out, while his squad protects him of course.

    Not saying it has to be this way just something I thought up to make it engaging and worth while for both parties.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Posts: 3,365Members
    QUOTE (jamin @ Jul 30 2010, 10:44 AM) »
    He just told you exactly how to please both crowds...

    MACs are the only things that can initiate builds, however marines have the option to assist the MAC to build something faster.

    Simple, done.


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  • KerostasisKerostasis Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33056Posts: 12Members
    QUOTE (Revi.uk @ Jul 30 2010, 12:46 PM) »
    There is no point though, why does everyone believe that pressing 'e' on a target is the be all and end all of natural selection. It's not fun and it's not engaging. It's boring and pointless when you can have a robot do it for you whilst you do the fun things like shoot stuff.


    If holding E was all you did, it wouldn't be engaging -- the engaging part is the tension that comes from being vulnerable. What happens if a skulk sneaks up on me while I'm building? Will I be able to defend myself? Can my buddies keep me alive long enough to finish this?

    The MAC has the potential to remove that tension and make it boring again. What fun is it to stand next to a MAC while IT holds "e" instead of you? Most of the time you won't even be shooting stuff, because skulks still don't like rushing emplaced marines.
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