Guild Wars 2

AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,189Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
manifisto
http://www.arena.net/blog/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto
I think my favorite part is the one where I don't have to use a partying interface to work together with people. Damn hassle just to help people.
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  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Posts: 9,006Members
    Fisto eh?
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,189Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,279Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    Seems cool, looks like somekind of combination of a dynamic real time combat system with auto attack as well or something from what I've seen in the vids and understood from the combat info on the site...

    http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/combat/

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  • DiscoZombieDiscoZombie Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18951Posts: 4,521Members
    I hate to be a skeptic all the time, but... that was a long-ass video to showcase little more than a bunch of art and animations. And that was some high-minded talk at the beginning - but there's a reason MMO's have grinding and monsters standing around in fields, and why games are generally linear. Grinding (perhaps artificially) extends playtime, and creating hundreds of hours of unique scripted content is effectively impossible because it would be way too expensive. So either they're lying when they suggest the game will be non-stop excitement, or the game will be really short. Though I guess it's to be expected that the game will be short, since it will no doubt be episodic like GW1...
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  • ZiGGYZiGGY Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12479Posts: 3,039Members
    I was so pumped for the original guild wars release, then when the final version came out I was sorely disappointed D:
    I translate the promo as: guild wars 1 + hyperbole = 2, but I am not exactly known for my cheerful speakings xD
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  • PaniggPanigg Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58212Posts: 580Members
    edited August 2010
    QUOTE (DiscoZombie @ Aug 11 2010, 01:47 AM) »
    I hate to be a skeptic all the time, but... that was a long-ass video to showcase little more than a bunch of art and animations. And that was some high-minded talk at the beginning - but there's a reason MMO's have grinding and monsters standing around in fields, and why games are generally linear. Grinding (perhaps artificially) extends playtime, and creating hundreds of hours of unique scripted content is effectively impossible because it would be way too expensive. So either they're lying when they suggest the game will be non-stop excitement, or the game will be really short. Though I guess it's to be expected that the game will be short, since it will no doubt be episodic like GW1...


    Thanks for saving me the time to put those words together.

    What they say is not impossible, but highly unlikely. You need hundreds if not thousands of people to write events, create models and textures, write the scripts etc. if you want to make this last for more than, lets say 50 hours.

    I love that they try to remove the grind, but what they propose is a singleplayer game with a persistent world.

    On second thought I wouldn't even mind that so much.

    "So if you’re playing an Elementalist, try casting a fire wall, and then see what happens when your friends shoot projectiles through it."

    That sounds pretty sweet. I'd love if they actually made that work with tons of skills.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE (Khaze @ Feb 26 2010, 01:00 PM) »
    Can I have your babies, Panigg?

    QUOTE (Quaunaut @ Feb 26 2010, 11:38 AM) »
    OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH CULTIST CONFIRMED

  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,279Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    edited August 2010
    Saw some class specific vids on youtube where them Elementalist can use their surroundings as weapons.

    You seem to be near water, use that water as a weapon. You see some big boulders, start hurling them at foes or perhaps make the spikes come from the ground... Not sure if they are area specific though, I think no so much (would be kinda cool for strategy maybe)

    I think I also saw something about making a tree or a rock come to life and maybe fight for you (well it looked like that). Or maybe it's just a mission where you have to cure the corrupted tree/rock people. Heck I dunno...



    As DiscoZombie, I'm also pretty damn skeptical about this game and their bold statements. But hell, why so serious... Wouldn't it be a lot cooler when they can actually pull of a content rich dynamic persistent environment that actually makes you feel like a hero instead of player124689 doing the same thing as all other numbers, I mean players image

    Maybe Gabe called them saying: "Hey, you guys want to use our AI director? I take my payments in cookies!"
    Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    Considering the original guild wars was actually a really good game with some damn good combat systems and balancing, i'm certainly looking forward to GW2.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Posts: 9,006Members
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 11 2010, 04:27 AM) »
    Considering the original guild wars was actually a really good game with some damn good combat systems and balancing, i'm certainly looking forward to GW2.

    That. Arenanet could've kept releasing expansion packs, milking the franchise for all it was worth, then left it sour and curdled by the roadside. Instead, they stopped all major development on GW 1 and started over, ostensibly because they had "developed themselves into a corner" with GW 1. They may flop. It's a nasty business, littered with a myriad pitfalls. But they've successfully made it through the obstacle course once, and it'll be interesting to see what happens on their next time through.
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • TesseractTesseract Join Date: 2007-06-21 Member: 61328Posts: 238Members, Constellation
    Guild Wars 2 is the only other game I give a damn about in the upcoming indeterminate period of time. NS2 being the first.
  • PaniggPanigg Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58212Posts: 580Members
    It sounds pretty good I have to give them that. If they can pull it off it'll be a pretty sweet game.
    QUOTE (Khaze @ Feb 26 2010, 01:00 PM) »
    Can I have your babies, Panigg?

    QUOTE (Quaunaut @ Feb 26 2010, 11:38 AM) »
    OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH CULTIST CONFIRMED

  • ShockwaveShockwave If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336Posts: 3,730NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    I'm very excited for GW2. I loved GW conceptually, and just found it let down by niggles, irritations and UI problems. The core game mechanics, especially the limited skillsets (so 2 characters of the same class combination could be radically different in play) was a great move, and gave the game a lot more depth than it might otherwise have had. They could easily get it wrong, but I'm cautiously hopeful.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Posts: 9,006Members
    edited August 2010
    QUOTE (Shockwave @ Aug 11 2010, 03:17 PM) »
    I'm very excited for GW2. I loved GW conceptually, and just found it let down by niggles, irritations and UI problems. The core game mechanics, especially the limited skillsets (so 2 characters of the same class combination could be radically different in play) was a great move, and gave the game a lot more depth than it might otherwise have had. They could easily get it wrong, but I'm cautiously hopeful.

    A REALLY great move, for more reasons than just the one you stated (though that's arguably the best one). Another one is that it cuts down on the ridiculous UI clutter that tends to plague MMOs.
    I think GW made a big mistake with primary/secondary classes though. The idea was to increase versatility even more, and it led to some ridiculously innovative (and more often just plain ridiculous) builds, but the concept was very difficult to wrap your head around, leading many people to take refuge in the simplicity of a single class, which was limited in potential. I don't remember if they've said whether they're doing that in the sequel.

    Don't take the whole "no grind" thing too literal. Or take it completely literal. Remember that the word grind basically means "do boring stuff to level up." A lot of what we call "grind" in MMOs is simply called "playing the game" in other games. The problem being that your daily run-of-the-mill combat in MMOs is usually repetitive and devoid of challenge. "Removing the grind" could simply mean that, removing the boredom from the process. You will most definitely still have to kill thousands of mobs, but hopefully it'll actually be fun.

    Don't take the bit about "you save town X, town X stays saved" thing too literal either. I'm sure Arenanet knows full well it can't be that simple. You know how WoW occasionally gets a new boss that's beaten by some top guild within the day? The only reason that isn't an utter catastrophe is because everyone else gets to try and beat the boss too. GW2 will have to do the same. Nobody wants to buy the game three months after release and find that the world is saved and there's nothing to do.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • PaniggPanigg Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58212Posts: 580Members
    QUOTE (lolfighter @ Aug 11 2010, 03:43 PM) »
    Don't take the bit about "you save town X, town X stays saved" thing too literal either. I'm sure Arenanet knows full well it can't be that simple. You know how WoW occasionally gets a new boss that's beaten by some top guild within the day? The only reason that isn't an utter catastrophe is because everyone else gets to try and beat the boss too. GW2 will have to do the same. Nobody wants to buy the game three months after release and find that the world is saved and there's nothing to do.


    Haven't they used instancing for those things in GW1 already? If they don't I'm pretty sure they will now.

    For example, you run around in a zone, kill some stuff, while suddenly a massive army of centaurs attacks, you and everybody else in the zones joins up to defend the town and you get flagged for "saving the village" simply because you took part in the fight. If you're in the zone but didn't take part in the fight, you may try again later or the village is gone in you instance.

    I'm not exactly sure how they're going to do this but this is what I imagine they might do.
    QUOTE (Khaze @ Feb 26 2010, 01:00 PM) »
    Can I have your babies, Panigg?

    QUOTE (Quaunaut @ Feb 26 2010, 11:38 AM) »
    OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH CULTIST CONFIRMED

  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,189Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    No instancing, they've said.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (lolfighter @ Aug 11 2010, 07:39 AM) »
    That. Arenanet could've kept releasing expansion packs, milking the franchise for all it was worth, then left it sour and curdled by the roadside. Instead, they stopped all major development on GW 1 and started over, ostensibly because they had "developed themselves into a corner" with GW 1. They may flop. It's a nasty business, littered with a myriad pitfalls. But they've successfully made it through the obstacle course once, and it'll be interesting to see what happens on their next time through.


    I'd be pretty surprised if they completely stuff it up, they released enough GW1 stuff and have enough info on it to know what made it popular, as well as what people wanted in the new one.

    GW1s biggest strength apart from the really good combat system was that it was very much your game, you as the player were in control of it, you didn't have to deal with random people killing you unless you wanted to enter PVP, you didn't have to run around finding places other people hadn't cleared to kill stuff, and you felt more or less like the only players in the world sometimes, but with all the benefits of a fully online economy and whatnot.

    It was built around the party, not the server, each party plays through the game by themselves, and you can change your party if you want, but it's very much about the small group of players.

    I hate multiplayer games as a rule but I loved guild wars because it's almost singleplayer. If you want to you can spend all your time in rarely visited outposts and just run around and take in the scenery, I did that a lot and it was grand fun, occasionally teaming up with the kurzicks to defend fort aspenwood or something or doing a bit of GvG.

    It's exactly the kind of MMO I'd want to play, I'm sure that's more or less what we'll be getting this time with some improvements.
  • PaniggPanigg Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58212Posts: 580Members
    QUOTE (Align @ Aug 11 2010, 05:48 PM) »
    No instancing, they've said.


    Interesting. I'd be happy to know more about that system. Seems hard to pull of tho.
    QUOTE (Khaze @ Feb 26 2010, 01:00 PM) »
    Can I have your babies, Panigg?

    QUOTE (Quaunaut @ Feb 26 2010, 11:38 AM) »
    OH MY GOD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH CULTIST CONFIRMED

  • Corporal_FortierCorporal_Fortier Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46079Posts: 409Members, Constellation
    I usually stay clear of MMOs fearing I'll feel obliged to play because of the monthly fee, so that's one reason I liked GW. That, and it was a great game. I don't know why, but I had the impression that there was going to be a monthly fee this time around for GW2, which made me feel sad, but I just read the official FAQs and it clearly states the contrary. I don't know how I came to think this (maybe someone who followed GW2's development more closely knows if this was the case at some point?), but I sure as hell am happy now! I might even jump back in GW1 a little, for old times sake!
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,279Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    Could be because at the time of GW, making that game with a persistent world would need monthly funding. But now they have a better insight and more experience to make a persistent world while still keeping it free except initial purchase and of course the expansions.

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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    I don't honestly see persistant world as a feature.

    If I want to play with other players then I can, I get a party in town and go do whatever it is I want to do, otherwise I'm free to be on my own.

    I don't really want to have to deal with other players killing all the monsters and taking up space.

    I liked the instancing of guild wars, I hope they don't remove it entirely.
  • A_Boojum_SnarkA_Boojum_Snark Join Date: 2003-09-07 Member: 20628Posts: 710Members
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 12 2010, 10:02 PM) »
    I don't really want to have to deal with other players killing all the monsters and taking up space.

    They actually specifically mention such things in the third section of the manifesto. They want to do away with the "oh no another player is here to ruin my day" feeling and make it so that interaction is always beneficial. Not the least of which is "When someone kills a monster, not just that player’s party but everyone who was seriously involved in the fight gets 100% of the XP and loot for the kill."
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands, Hoogezand Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Posts: 11,279Forum Admins, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue mod
    And they also mentioned they will adjust the spawn waves, they don't want fields of mobs standing around waiting to be killed as well.

    As I mentioned, this seriously reminds me of the L4D AI director. Or at least I hope something similar to that effect...

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  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (A_Boojum_Snark @ Aug 13 2010, 06:49 AM) »
    They actually specifically mention such things in the third section of the manifesto. They want to do away with the "oh no another player is here to ruin my day" feeling and make it so that interaction is always beneficial. Not the least of which is "When someone kills a monster, not just that player’s party but everyone who was seriously involved in the fight gets 100% of the XP and loot for the kill."


    Which is a sensible extension of the way guild wars handled loot, but it doesn't address the problem of me going to an area and finding two dozen other people roaming around killing everything in it.

    Considering the number of people in some of the outposts in guild wars, I'd expect maybe upwards of a hundred people in some of the areas at any given time.

    So either you have to spawn huge numbers of monsters which messes with the balance massively, or you simply make bigger instances, with the max number of players in any given instance being about twenty, and not linked to parties or whatnot.

    So I would hope they continue with the instancing mechanic, change it sure but don't remove it because it's a very good mechanic with a lot of benefits.
  • TesseractTesseract Join Date: 2007-06-21 Member: 61328Posts: 238Members, Constellation
    Your issue has already been dealt with - the more people are in an area the more monsters spawn, with strength relative to player levels and numbers. This means that you will consistently encounter new monsters but they will weaken if your teammates abandon you.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Posts: 9,006Members
    Guild Wars 2 will also use a "shard" system if I remember correctly. It's not a single shard world like Eve Online is. So if you and I are in the same place on different servers, we won't see each other. However, you can switch between servers at will, probably in a way similar to how you switch between districts in Guild Wars 1, and in terms of economy and such the servers will also be linked. Somewhere inbetween the classic MMO model (multiple shards completely isolated from each other) and Eve Online's single-shard model.
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • TesseractTesseract Join Date: 2007-06-21 Member: 61328Posts: 238Members, Constellation
    I hope those shards are anti-aliased I don't want to cut myself on a jagged one.
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Posts: 9,006Members
    They're anti-aliased and honed to a razor's edge. You betta check yoself.
    Military cemeteries around the world are packed with brainwashed, dead soldiers who were convinced God was on their side.
    - George Carlin
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Posts: 3,854Members
    QUOTE (Tesseract @ Aug 14 2010, 10:48 AM) »
    Your issue has already been dealt with - the more people are in an area the more monsters spawn, with strength relative to player levels and numbers. This means that you will consistently encounter new monsters but they will weaken if your teammates abandon you.


    Yeah I find it hard to imagine that will work properly without monsters phasing in and out of existence randomly, but I suppose we'll see.
  • Corporal_FortierCorporal_Fortier Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46079Posts: 409Members, Constellation
    QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Aug 14 2010, 08:34 PM) »
    Yeah I find it hard to imagine that will work properly without monsters phasing in and out of existence randomly, but I suppose we'll see.

    I guess they wouldn't remove monsters once spawned. This sounds a little like the good old "Diablo's minions grow stronger / weaken", I don't see anything wrong with that.
    image
  • TesseractTesseract Join Date: 2007-06-21 Member: 61328Posts: 238Members, Constellation
    Do bear in mind, Corporal Frontier that the last time Chris posted this happened.

    Don't necessarily worry about his "doubts." :P

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