Map Copy Protection?

WhiteZeroWhiteZero That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Posts: 844Members, Constellation
Sense Spark Maps don't need to be compiled, what kind of security will be implemented to prevent people from ripping off your hard work on a map? Will maps be actually compiled, just only when completed and distributed? Will there be some sort of encryption implemented? Anything?
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  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Posts: 920Members
    I was wondering about this too
    Just so you know, my 'A' BUTTON TRIGGERS THE Caps lock on my keyboaRD, SO MY POSTS are going to look funny until i caN PICK UP a new keyboARD...

    QUOTE (Talesin @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
    Congratulations, Mchief, on your first I&S idea not to be immediately locked. :)
  • FortuneFortune Join Date: 2009-04-27 Member: 67290Posts: 223Members, Constellation
    To be honest we don't really need it and even if we had it there would be various ways of bypassing encryption.

    If you make a map, tell the ns2 world about it and host it on your own site or something like moddb, sneak in a texture on the map with your credits if you want to. If it's a good map, let people open it up and learn from it. If they copy anything over and get discovered for doing this, the mapping community will burn them in the pitts of hell pretty much. I wouldn't worry about it.

    I hope they don't include encryption, one of the best things UnrealED has over Hammer is the fact that you can load up any map, official and otherwise, disect them and see how they're done.
  • hugh3syhugh3sy Join Date: 2009-07-28 Member: 68294Posts: 7Members
    To be honest i have ripped so many maps to learn there secrets. Its selfish individuals who want copy rights.
  • monopolowamonopolowa Join Date: 2004-05-23 Member: 28839Posts: 920Members
    There still needs to be a way to protect map consistency though, what's to stop you from changing your map's textures or lighting and using the same map name so you get an advantage?
    Just so you know, my 'A' BUTTON TRIGGERS THE Caps lock on my keyboaRD, SO MY POSTS are going to look funny until i caN PICK UP a new keyboARD...

    QUOTE (Talesin @ Mar 7 2005, 10:46 PM)
    Congratulations, Mchief, on your first I&S idea not to be immediately locked. :)
  • WhiteZeroWhiteZero That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Posts: 844Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    I'm aware that there is always a way around protection like this. But the idea is to prevent they kiddies from ripping your map. If someone is smart enough to bypass encryption or recompile a map, good for them, they can have it.

    Anyway, I guess even if there was no protection, it wouldn't be a big deal. I'm mostly just curious if Max already planned something.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Posts: 240Members
    QUOTE(monopolowa @ Nov 27 2009, 08:56 AM) »
    There still needs to be a way to protect map consistency though, what's to stop you from changing your map's textures or lighting and using the same map name so you get an advantage?

    The game will not allow someone to load a map that's different from the server's.... The filename will not make a difference.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 27 2009, 03:36 PM) »
    Sense Spark Maps don't need to be compiled, what kind of security will be implemented to prevent people from ripping off your hard work on a map? Will maps be actually compiled, just only when completed and distributed? Will there be some sort of encryption implemented? Anything?


    You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • SirotSirot Join Date: 2006-12-03 Member: 58851Posts: 553Members
    QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 10:12 AM) »
    You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?


    Map protection is important because sometimes the biggest reward a person working for free can get is notoriety. If everything remains open, there is a risk of someone stealing your thunder. UWE gets paid for what it does and it directly benefits from people building upon their stuff, since it gets them interest from outside of their community and more importantly, additional content.

  • WhiteZeroWhiteZero That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Posts: 844Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 09:12 AM) »
    You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?

    Yes. That is kind of the point here. But we all appreciate your snarky comments.
  • ScytheScythe Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 46Posts: 4,371NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation, Reinforced - Silver mod
    QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 28 2009, 12:12 AM) »
    You're using an editor made by someone else, that renders in an engine made by someone else, showing the textures and props made by someone else, that you got off the Internet that is, you will have guessed it by now, made by someone else - and you worry about someone "ripping off" some of your geometry?


    Plenty of artists make a living using tools created by others. And there's more to a map than geometry.

    This thread raises valid concerns. How would you feel if someone went over your pride and joy, harvesting out their favourite bits, rearranging them a bit and releasing it as their own work? I'd feel pretty pissed if I didn't get any credit.

    I'm in favour of optional copy-protection of maps, but I'm putting it in my "don't delay release to add it" basket.

    --Scythe--

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    "Show me an operation that is running smoothly and I'll show you someone who's covering up mistakes. Real boats rock." - Frank Herbert
    image PAPT
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 27 2009, 04:17 PM) »
    Map protection is important because sometimes the biggest reward a person working for free can get is notoriety. If everything remains open, there is a risk of someone stealing your thunder. UWE gets paid for what it does and it directly benefits from people building upon their stuff, since it gets them interest from outside of their community and more importantly, additional content.



    The basic idea behind working for free is that you don't actually get a reward. But it's good to see where everyone is standing. Should I ever release anything decent, feel free to rip off of it to your heart's content.
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • FortuneFortune Join Date: 2009-04-27 Member: 67290Posts: 223Members, Constellation
    Yes but for anyone to 'rip you off' you'll first need to release it yourself, like I say if you upload to Moddb they have the date right next to when you uploaded it.

    If someone rips off your map and it's popular, that's probably because they released it to a community of mappers, so just go to this community and name and shame. Mapping communities do not take kindly to people using other maps as their own and all you have to do is show them examples of areas ripped off and link to your original dowload, dated before the ripoff version was released.

    Of course if you do release a nice map, make sure to tell everyone about it and it'll get the praise it deserves. If someone copies it then, the communities will generally notice it.

    Also opening a map to see how it works is fine, it's why the tools to open compiled hammer maps exist, which are easy to find by anyone.
  • hugh3syhugh3sy Join Date: 2009-07-28 Member: 68294Posts: 7Members
    edited November 2009
    but why should we waste uwe time spending ages trying to copy protect maps when they should be spending time on getting the game released? They released the editor for people too make cool and fun maps at the release of the game. That way the community as a whole will grow and the poupularity of the game will increase. Map protection with hale the grown as of the community at large because people rippe to make maps, more maps = more fun!
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • WhiteZeroWhiteZero That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Posts: 844Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    QUOTE(hugh3sy @ Nov 27 2009, 10:29 AM) »
    but why should we waste uwe time spending ages trying to copy protect maps when they should be spending time on getting the game released? They released the editor for people too make cool and fun maps at the release of the game. That way the community as a whole will grow and the poupularity of the game will increase. Map protection with hale the grown as of the community at large because people rippe to make maps, more maps = more fun!

    I'll attempt to reply to your incomprehensible post:

    Adding something like encryption/decryption would actually be very easy. It would also allow people to choose if they want to copy protect their map as well, not making it required.
    Step 1.) Add "Encrypt Map" option to Spark Editor. This will apply something like DES/Blowfish/etc encryption to the map code.
    Step 2.) Add decryption protocol to the client/dedicated server software. So during the map preload phase of loading, the map is decrypted client side; and if necessary upon server map change, server side.
    Step 3.) Done

    And yes, I know this kind of protocol can be cracked. But at least it's an option for something.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    All it does is take away time from the devs, and it doesn't even work, as you yourself admitted. Those "kiddies" who rip off other people's maps are the same ones who will simply download the inevitable decryption tool and run it over the map to get what they want. As others have said, if you want your work to be recognized release it on one of the community sites and people there will be able to tell.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Posts: 92Members
    To me, Map Copy Protection should be available. It would prevent malicious people from releasing fake versions and stuff.
    Example : you're working on ns2_faceon_b4. The beta is public. Some 'tards takes it and changes some stuff and releases it somehow as ns2_faceon_b5. You may get ***ed. Some players will think it's the sequel of your map and it sucks, etc ...
    Long story short, it would prevent a ######load of troubles for some case ( I also have Dota in mind ).
    huhuh, ensl.org Admin
    European Natural Selection League
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Posts: 1,317Members
    edited November 2009
    Irony is the gaming community as a whole being against DRM and then asking for DRM to protect something as retarded as a map.

    I don't want any kind of idiocy like DRM for something as pathetic as a map. This is almost as ridiculous as the 'copy protection' on Tribes 2 script files.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • borsukborsuk Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67717Posts: 106Members
    edited November 2009
    QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 27 2009, 02:36 PM) »
    Sense Spark Maps don't need to be compiled, what kind of security will be implemented to prevent people from ripping off your hard work on a map?


    The best way to kill a great idea - keep it to yourself.

    QUOTE(huhuh @ Nov 27 2009, 05:13 PM) »
    To me, Map Copy Protection should be available. It would prevent malicious people from releasing fake versions and stuff.


    You don't want copy protection for that. You want trademark.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • WhiteZeroWhiteZero That Guy Join Date: 2004-06-24 Member: 29511Posts: 844Members, Constellation
    edited November 2009
    QUOTE(Temphage @ Nov 27 2009, 11:33 AM) »
    Irony is the gaming community as a whole being against DRM and then asking for DRM to protect something as retarded as a map.

    I don't want any kind of idiocy like DRM for something as pathetic as a map. This is almost as ridiculous as the 'copy protection' on Tribes 2 script files.

    This is nothing like DRM for games.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,180Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Seems the non-mapper's don't get this.

    Maps take months of hard work to make. If they can be freely opened in their editable form, then you WILL have a-holes who go into them, take out entire rooms or even the entire map, tweak some stupid little piece and act like it's their own.

    But think about the alternative, where it's a bit encrypted like in Hammer (HL series). If they really want, they can decompile, but end up with a horrible mess. But what can they still do? What every respectable mapper does... which is find inspiration from other maps. You can ALWAYS go into ANY map on your own client and examine every little corner to see how they built it. Actually being in the editable format is only good for some tricky things that are mostly restrained to single player maps. In MP maps, things aren't as complicated, as it's mostly about level flow and geometry design.
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
    Creator of Ns_Nexus (ns1); Main thread found here.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    Are the days when people didn't mind or even were proud when others built upon their ideas really gone?
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,180Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Btw... talking about 'Map DRM' compared to 'Game DRM' is totally different, like WhiteZero says.

    Game DRM is about how many times you can install a game; we all want to be able to freely install our games as many times as we want once we own them.

    Map DRM still lets people play the maps all they want forever and ever. It's about stopping people from opening the map up, editing it without the author's permission, and then re-releasing it without proper crediting. It's more similar to the 'reverse engineering' and copy protection laws that cover games.
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
    Creator of Ns_Nexus (ns1); Main thread found here.
  • StixNStonzStixNStonz Join Date: 2006-11-06 Member: 58439Posts: 1,180Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    QUOTE(NurEinMensch @ Nov 27 2009, 11:45 AM) »
    Are the days when people didn't mind or even were proud when others built upon their ideas really gone?


    Again, you don't understand the situation. I love it when people go into my maps (in-game) and love them and find inspiration from them. I would despise it if someone went into my maps without my permission in an editor, ripped out a hallway I worked on for 5 hours, plugged it into their own map and then released it like it was their own.

    It wouldn't be as bad if someone LOOKED at that hallway in my map and then re-built it from scratch, as at least they'd put in the work and have the skills to build that. But if they did have those skills, they would almost surely not copy things but rather just be inspired by them and make something truly original.

    How is that not a better outcome?
    Professional Game and Level Designer, thanks to NS!
    Creator of Ns_Nexus (ns1); Main thread found here.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Posts: 1,650Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer admin
    There's data in the level file that the editor needs but the game doesn't. I imagine we'll be releasing a tool (or maybe someone else will make one!) that will strip that data out so you can distribute your map without it easily being opened in the editor.
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Posts: 1,352Members, Constellation
    That's pretty sad and pathetic. Makes me wonder if I even want to be part of the gaming community any more. "I hate it when people look at my work in an editor"... I mean seriously. If this attitude was more prevailing concepts like open source wouldn't even exist.
    This is the kind of thing that goes on behind close doors on normal game releases, where they are optimizing it right up until the end. You guys are just getting to play with a version of the game that normally only the developers see.

    --Cory
  • TemphageTemphage Join Date: 2009-10-28 Member: 69158Posts: 1,317Members
    edited November 2009
    QUOTE(WhiteZero @ Nov 27 2009, 04:40 PM) »
    This is nothing like DRM for games.

    Yeah, games have monetary value.

    QUOTE
    I would despise it if someone went into my maps without my permission in an editor, ripped out a hallway I worked on for 5 hours, plugged it into their own map and then released it like it was their own.

    Alright drama-queen, when in the history of NS has this ever been a problem? The very few times its happened, the guy was found out and ridiculed and nobody ever took him seriously again. There were no quality released maps for NS1 that had decompiled content in it. Let's talk about strawmen arguments, shall we?

    How come modelers aren't asking for DRM, or texture artists? Because they apparently have some brains. If I download someone's skin, and think "this is nice but I don't like that logo there" and photoshop it out... NOBODY CARES. Why is that okay with you, but your dumb map isn't?

    I decompiled many a map in NS1 to learn how certain things were done. Its how I learned how certain things worked, how to design certain architecture, and you know what? I'm betting a LOT of mappers used the .bsp decompiler to learn as well.

    You can't copyright architecture shape. If I make a hallway that coincidentally looks a lot like yours, you can't moan that I 'stole' it. Look, a room with crates! ITS STOLEN FROM THOSE OTHER ROOMS WITH CRATES.

    QUOTE
    It wouldn't be as bad if someone LOOKED at that hallway in my map and then re-built it from scratch, as at least they'd put in the work and have the skills to build that. But if they did have those skills, they would almost surely not copy things but rather just be inspired by them and make something truly original.

    And here we find the truth of your argument. This has nothing to do with 'stealing' architecture, and everything to do with TEH SKILLZ. It's like the mapper equivalent of calling anyone who doesn't like bunnyhopping a skilless noob scrub who should GTFO because YOU WERE IN CAL-P.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    QUOTE
    Chris0132 - "If I didn't want someone to take something of mine and use it to any and every possible end, I wouldn't put it on the internet, as anything on the internet can and will be used without permission, quoted out of context, and photoshopped into porn."
  • MatenrouMatenrou Join Date: 2009-11-23 Member: 69471Posts: 6Members
    I dont think its up to others to choose what you wanna do with YOUR maps.

    If it's possible, yes.

    high on the to-do list? no.
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Posts: 3,365Members
    QUOTE(Sirot @ Nov 27 2009, 08:17 AM) »
    Map protection is important because sometimes the biggest reward a person working for free can get is notoriety. If everything remains open, there is a risk of someone stealing your thunder. UWE gets paid for what it does and it directly benefits from people building upon their stuff, since it gets them interest from outside of their community and more importantly, additional content.


    I think sirot said it best.


    It's not about protection as much as intellectual property. As much as I enjoy learning from other mappers, I typically learn from walking around in their map, and on occassion I'll decompile them.

    The key thing here is 1) consistency. I say this is a certain map and we all have the same map. 2) Safety of your work. Peripherally 3) streamlined compiled map to lower download time (Max said there's excess info that they can strip out).



    That being said, as many have pointed out, the mapping community is pretty self-regulating. The idiots who just copy-pasta will get laughed out of the room. And I'm sure most mappers will release their source if they want others to learn from it. However, if someone wants to lock their stuff, I have no issue with it.
    helping bring perspective and learning since the olde days

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    <Mexican> For a while, I thought it was 'Oh ######'!


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  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Posts: 3,885Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Community Dev Team
    edited November 2009
    What would you learn from decompiling a map? They didn't give you the original result anyways. You could only look at the entities, and there was nothing complex about the NS entity system. I've never had to decompile a map to learn how to do stuff. And I think that if someone has to copy & paste stuff from another map then he's not gonna get very far anyways, but it's annoying when it happens. If you really want to know how the original mapper did something I think it's better to ask him directly or other experienced mappers, there's no secrets here.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • slayer20slayer20 Killed a man once. Join Date: 2007-12-13 Member: 63157Posts: 863Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I remember there being a way to make it so your maps can't be decompiled in Half-Life (might have just been Sven Co-op). You put in some entity and gave it a certain command to prevent people from decompiling it.
    I killed a man once.

    Check out my YouTube Channel showing off short videos of the level I am working on.
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