Alien Commander threatens NS2 Survival

1235

Comments

  • Jack_DanielsJack_Daniels Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72567Members
    I don't like the idea of having to protect these builders. That just doesn't sound that fun. They go down in like two or three skulk bites. I have to go to a res node anyway why can't I build the resource collector?
  • SyknikSyknik InversionNS2.com Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2064Members, Constellation, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2010
    I can't possibly see how people are saying that alien commanders are going to be a bad thing. Have you checked it out? Have you played around with alien commander for a while and actually learned it? Or did you jump in and get confused and just immediately think it's a bad idea?

    The Alien Commander definitely does seem like a great new feature added to NS2, but like other stuff does need a bit of tweaking.

    1 - It isn't the end all, where you'll always have to be inside commanding. Currently right now you can create your drifter, click build, click harvester put it over an RT nozzle, and jump out, look at that, a whole 10 seconds. So time consuming, I know right?

    2 - Everything can pretty much be bound to a key to get to it. You drop a shade bind it to 3. Eventually in time (looking at the stuff) you can upgrade the chamber, oh ###### guys that's tough, click your 3 button it goes right to it, and you click the upgrade, then jump out, there's another 4 seconds of hard work as an AC.

    3 - The AC also wont be dropping meds or ammunition or anything of the sort so why on earth would people suspect that an alien team will always need a commander? You won't have too, each of the alien commander jobs takes a max of 5-15 seconds, then once you bind most of the stuff, it then goes even quicker.


    Now let me ask you what's so wrong with this? God knows most of you are probably going to die and respawn a lot anyway, so oh no jump into the alien commander role for a moment and click 2 buttons, damn you just did some upgrading for your team, congratulations. Maybe later on there will be harder and more complicated tasks that the commander will have to do, perhaps that canal thing, which yet i don't really know how that works or if it's even the commander that does it, but if it is.. For the people who are playing it competitively that commander is going to definitely an important role to helping an alien side win. But as I said using the AC at it's full potential would be amazing can do SO many things it seems to turn the balance of a game.

    But also if people don't go into it for a long period of time or at all really, you just need someone to jump in for a quick moment just to simply click 2 buttons and get an upgrade, geez that's hard.

    Another thing about build bots for marines, they pretty have the same amount of hp, so what's the difference between having the builder go and possibly dying, it's not like you'll waste your money on the RT and have your marine who's building it die. Don't forget RESOURCES are still VERY important, you should still need to be going to RTs with your builder to protect him while he's building. It'll probobly end up with 1 guy still going RT capping but instead of getting ambushed and getting screwed over by him having to take out his weapon and maneuvering around an RT he can stay infront, guarding until it's built, gun at the ready, you have a better chance of getting RTs built.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1788578:date=Jul 29 2010, 04:49 PM:name=Jack_Daniels)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jack_Daniels @ Jul 29 2010, 04:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1788578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like the idea of having to protect these builders. That just doesn't sound that fun. They go down in like two or three skulk bites. I have to go to a res node anyway why can't I build the resource collector?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    My take on the build bots is to make the commander aspect of the game more akin to a traditional RTS. In NS1 playing as the commander was definitely more of a "taking one for the team" kind of position as opposed to something someone would actually enjoy and actively choose over playing infantry. (I'm aware some of you probably enjoyed it) Having build bots allows the commander to take a considerably bigger role in the game having a direct influence on the battlefield as opposed to simply being this all seeing eye that drops med kits and weapons.

    Lastly, changing the commander in such a way allows for the games to be a lot more competitive. A commander will need actual skill with mouse and keyboard (think Starcraft) using developed tactics and having a serious hand in the outcome of the match.

    It's quite clear that UWE want NS2 to be a more competitive e-sports type experience; changing the commander in this way certainly goes a step towards achieving that.
  • DixieWolfDixieWolf Join Date: 2010-02-10 Member: 70508Members
    ^ agreed. protecting builders adds it's own level of strategy. as commander, you can't just say "hey guys, all of you go attack the enemy", and then try sending your buildbots/drifters all over alone. you have to balance defense and offense. (of course, rushing could yield desirable results. just a different strategy)
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2010
    I have seen games where the sole builder is a type of npc.
    Guess what, the commander was busier keeping the builders alive than actualy giving orders, building stuff or upgrading.

    Reason: NPCs are to dump.
    You give them weapons, someone will cliff them (attack from around a corner, when they prepare to fire at you retreat, they go back to building, rinse repeat).
    You make them hunt the offender, they're lead into ambushes.
    You make them take cover, you get nothing done at all.

    I just hate that.

    You can't play without aCom because RTs go down in 5 axe hits max, and drifters tank even less abuse.
    We either give the Gorge RT dropping back or we can say good bye to this as the main strategy against kharaa will be to hunt down the damn snails before they can complete their tasks.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's quite clear that UWE want NS2 to be a more competitive e-sports type experience; changing the commander in this way certainly goes a step towards achieving that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I strongly disagree. I feel this to be wrong.
    The experience that was had as marine commander was exactly what it should be.
    Commanding from the hill back in (appearing to be) secure areas, handing out support and sending in stuff.
    right now, the marine commander sits in between the first and second row of battle, and cant concentrate on either.
  • AvalonAvalon Join Date: 2007-03-04 Member: 60224Members
    edited July 2010
    I love the idea of the Alien Commander, and I can tell UWE knows what they are doing. Finally, I won't have to waste my resources to go gorge, waste what I have left on trying to build our economy, and then get killed by a rine because my team is retarded and won't give me enough, or any, support.

    Now the gorge actually can have a support combat role in addition to a builder role, which will make him a lot more exciting IMO. Also, now only the commander has to worry about managing the economy, and not leaving it up to a few individual players. In this aspect, they've definitely upped the element of RTS here, which is nice.

    Skeptics are just going to have to give it time to see how it will flesh out, since it seems like a lot of you just don't get it yet. It's going to be pretty damn sweet.
  • DixieWolfDixieWolf Join Date: 2010-02-10 Member: 70508Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1788599:date=Jul 29 2010, 12:39 PM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 29 2010, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1788599"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->right now, the marine commander sits in between the first and second row of battle, and cant concentrate on either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    the commander should play more RTSs, then. The command role is supposed to play like RTS... meaning they should have a lot to think about, and a lot to do. Giving the commander more things to concentrate on means that a skilled commander has a lot more to do with success. This makes a good commander ESSENTIAL for building a competitive team.
  • neoviperneoviper Join Date: 2007-11-07 Member: 62852Members
    I don't really have a problem with the alien commander, but I did like how you had to have your marines build your structures, made for some interesting teamwork sometimes. These new mobile constructor things seem like they'll be not too cool.
  • JackJack Join Date: 2002-04-24 Member: 507Members
    I've not read every post here, but didn't anyone think about creating a mod which will get us the old NS1 gameplay back?
    Shouldn't this be pretty easy with our current LUA access?
    In my opinion, the Alien Commander is a quite nice feature though, but if someone starts a NS1 mod, I will probably play it too.
  • brcaswellbrcaswell Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69181Members
    After the networking issues are settled and soon after map predictability and experience takes it toll, I predict that we'll see a routine emerge of pressure marines owning turtling aliens, resulting in 95% of games ending in Frontier victories.

    Food For Thought....

    I think you would have to completely change the nature of the teams (kharra is oppurtunity/skill orientated, frontier is pressure/tech oritentated) inorder to make this 'alien commander with commanded ai units' vision fesible. For, no commanded AI unit controlled from a top-down RTS interface by a player will ever compare to a player in the field managing and observing only his environment, with a FPS interface. In fact, I don't believe any commander can possibly react to all crucial events that are in need of his attention across the map, so many oppurtunities will be missed. You can't micromanage multible builders with scattered positions and directives/objectives against an advantaged team of players interfacing in an FPS environment. I'm talking early stages here.

    Is there any doubt in people's minds that if the Frontier commander was all together elimitated that the aliens would even stand a chance? This could be achieved by having frontiers upgrades and structures system similar to combat/classic hybrid mode), res gain is distributed by income and gained from kills. (res is used to purchase welder, which allows you to have the ability to place structures, upgrade attributes [apply a research countdown timer effect, also requiring certain structures to be placed]).. or something to this effect.

    Good marines, in such a system, would get res so quickly from kills they would be camping hive with sgs and jp in no time. I think the commanders are a limitation on a team. Such a limitation shouldn't be placed on the obviously disadvantaged, oppurtunity-orientated team.

    The frontier commander could afford to be slow, because the frontiers are 'capable' of dominating and controlling the field/room. They are always pressuring, so the time critical events are predictable and minimum. The Alien commander will not have such luxury, for his strategy is going to be based on when oppurtunties present themselves, such as in the unlikely events of aliens killing a group of pressure marines.


    Where I stand..
    I've been particularly interested to see the balancing attempts to augment this predicted limitation of mine, So far.. I haven't seen any features that alter the overall nature of these teams, which is good.. except I don't think it will last.
  • DrownDrown Underwater Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10392Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1724008:date=Aug 20 2009, 06:24 PM:name=uber_earp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (uber_earp @ Aug 20 2009, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1724008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please don't do the ALIEN COMMANDER.

    The beauty of the NS is the dichotomy and distinction between how each team operates. If you guys do implement an Alien Commander in this, I'm telling you now that people aren't going to play it for long.

    Look, we love NS, heck I was one of the uber nerds that bought the Special Edition Account! Everyone is looking forward to this game because of how fond we are of the NS as we know it. So it is foolish to think that the same level of love and excitement NS will exist if its premise is altered so dramatically.

    It's all about expectation. Expectation is based on a reality we know now, and that is the unique game style of NS1. Then it follows that the expectation must only be a "better" NS1. Too much change will be dangerous. And I'm already have second guesses about my purchase, putting hope in a reverse mod of this engine to NS1 original game play.

    I sincerely hope you take this to heart. And PLEASE, let me know if anyone else feels the same way.

    I'm not try to be threatening or antagonistic. (So any rage posts in response betray a user's intemperance, and illegitimacy of his/her claims)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Translation:
    I liked it when highways had 2 lanes, not 4.

    Change is bad - don't change!

    Grass was greener...

    ...used to walk uphill both ways...

    I'm dumb.
  • fragfestfragfest Join Date: 2010-07-29 Member: 73338Members
    Well for what its worth i my self dont realy like the idea of a alien commander since that makes both sides play the same way.

    but

    just see how it plays out when the game goes closer to beta hell even we might start to like it at the moment we cant make heads or tails from it since we cant upgrade a lot or play full games but sooner or later we will have lots of options and can start to do test runs and see if we like it


    so dont say no to it just wait a little wile and see how it goes
  • Stele007Stele007 Join Date: 2004-07-23 Member: 30063Members
    edited July 2010
    <!--quoteo(post=1789049:date=Jul 29 2010, 09:13 PM:name=fragfest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fragfest @ Jul 29 2010, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789049"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well for what its worth i my self dont realy like the idea of a alien commander since that makes both sides play the same way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No, it doesn't... It can't because the marines and kharaa have completely different units. I can maybe see you making this point once marines can evolve into different species, start out with only the handaxe, and start crawling on walls and in vents.

    Adding an alien commander doesn't seem that big of a deal to me and will fix some res issues affecting balance as well as centralize leadership on the kharaa. I think that the change to "tech points" where both sides benefit from capturing them is a much, much bigger change and places NS2's strategy gameplay closer to a regular RTS where both sides are (more or less) equal instead of the "delay aliens from expanding until marines tech up" gameplay that the first one had.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->instead of the "delay aliens from expanding until marines tech up" gameplay that the first one had.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Oh well, now one alien will have to micro manage every drifter and keep pooping them out because harvesters and the triloslugs will both be primary targets for harrassing marines.
    To make it clear: I dont like sitting around, watching something go somewhere and construct my buildings. I rather do it myself.


    <!--quoteo(post=1788566:date=Jul 29 2010, 05:21 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Jul 29 2010, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1788566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://therealbarackobama.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/sky-is-falling.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Did you see the referenced movie until the end? Just before everyone was chased through town?
  • fragfestfragfest Join Date: 2010-07-29 Member: 73338Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789109:date=Jul 30 2010, 02:46 AM:name=Stele007)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Stele007 @ Jul 30 2010, 02:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, it doesn't... It can't because the marines and kharaa have completely different units. I can maybe see you making this point once marines can evolve into different species, start out with only the handaxe, and start crawling on walls and in vents.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    i ment it as in both need to build stuff to progress. hive needs to build all the stuff like marines need to do
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    The two commander modes play too similarly at the moment.
  • PrefixPrefix Éirinn go Brách Join Date: 2006-12-31 Member: 59353Members, Constellation
    I somewhat agree about the NPC builders. It does take out a lot of the strategic elements from those who aren't playing commander. However I do think it is much better overall, the RTS and FPS elements are much clearer and I think good commanders from NS1 will actually like their role now.

    Some of the best euro commanders actually didn't like playing commander at all, inbcluding the likes of sherpa (AFAIK).

    I hope commanders in public will still pay attention to the ground though and not just build all day.
  • NurEinMenschNurEinMensch Join Date: 2003-02-26 Member: 14056Members, Constellation
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To make it clear: I dont like sitting around, watching something go somewhere and construct my buildings. I rather do it myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sounds like you don't like to play commander. That's ok. You don't have to.
  • Chris0132Chris0132 Join Date: 2009-07-25 Member: 68262Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789117:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:01 AM:name=RobB)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobB @ Jul 30 2010, 04:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->To make it clear: I dont like sitting around, watching something go somewhere and construct my buildings. I rather do it myself.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Odd because sitting around watching something is exactly what building your own buildings consists of.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Not really when you use those buildings as distraction or pressure and the team takes out attacking enemies.
    Doesnt matter which side you are on, that strategy worked.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    It's a bit early to start speculating on how the game will play and demand radical changes to supposed game play that we've yet to see.
  • SnazzSnazz Join Date: 2007-09-30 Member: 62482Members
    I enjoyed playing as the alien commander, although RobB has a good point about the vulnerability of drifters and I did find most of the time I was occupied with sending drifters out to the same places over and over.

    I think an ideal solution would be to allow both the commander and gorges to plant harvesters (possibly more). As for the Marines I think they should keep their ability from NS1 to finish and weld structures as well as the new build bot.

    That might seem excessively redundant but there's advantages and disadvantages to each method of planting/building.

    When you have a coordinated team the players themselves will be the best option and when it's more casual the commanders will at least be able to send out bots instead.
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    I keep reading all the threads on these AI builder issues and I believe the easiest solution would be to allow gorges and marines to still have the ability to build stuff. (The gorges buildings other than hydras come out of the hive res...thus the hive mind idea is still there). Then allow for there to only be a few AI builders who can help out around the area's that are secure, but they are not very viable for pushing the area of influence through building.

    +1 for the E key.
  • Revi.ukRevi.uk Join Date: 2010-04-12 Member: 71354Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789442:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:15 PM:name=Asimov)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Asimov @ Jul 30 2010, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789442"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I keep reading all the threads on these AI builder issues and I believe the easiest solution would be to allow gorges and marines to still have the ability to build stuff. (The gorges buildings other than hydras come out of the hive res...thus the hive mind idea is still there). Then allow for there to only be a few AI builders who can help out around the area's that are secure, but they are not very viable for pushing the area of influence through building.

    +1 for the E key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    So making build bots redundant, you're aware that as soon as you give the player the ability to build things commander controlled builders become pointless.

    I hope none of you actually expect them to change the way build bots work and bring back the E key as I suspect you'll be rather disappointed.
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    edited July 2010
    I was thinking more of a way to balance it. Maybe have a marine builder do it at 1/3 the rate, but right now it is just not viable to have a AI builder get past enemy lines. If you do 1/3 the rate then they can escort and then help a builder bot put up things faster but still retain the ability to sneak something up in another location...perhaps a teleport pad in a hive?

    Sorry a bit off topic in here, but I would think the gorges would like to have the same sort of building power as well.
  • RobBRobB TUBES OF THE INTERWEB Join Date: 2003-08-11 Member: 19423Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you're aware that as soon as you give the player the ability to build things commander controlled builders become pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9sGJG9eNRs0"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9sGJG9eNRs0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
    If it is meant to remove the stress of basebuilding from the field players, it will still work.
    If it is meant to remove the building from field players completely, it fails HARD.
  • TempesT487TempesT487 Join Date: 2009-04-15 Member: 67195Members, NS2 Playtester
    This is another example of a knee-jerk reaction to a hint of change in NS2. Please stop it. It is totally unfair on the developers for you to swing around and demand they remove their feature after having seen, quite literally, a sneak preview. No one here understands how the alien commander is going to function once all its abilities are in place (or the abilities of the other aliens for that matter), and especially how it is going to work with dynamic infestation.

    This game is in alpha stage, and I know people have said it over and over but clearly some people aren't getting the message. We have had a glimpse of the alien commander, and have access to a tiny amount of its abilities. You can't make the ridiculous statement that it will "threaten NS2 survival", when you barely understand the game. I hope the developers continue with the idea of the AC, because they have clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it.

    There seems to be a whole heap of hardcore NS1 fans in this forum that still can't get it through their heads that NS2 is not going to be NS1. If you want NS1, go and play it now, NS2 is going to be different, and we should be thankful of that. You may want NS2 to just be NS1 with a new slick of paint, but the developers aren't going to make a game they already made. It still baffles me that some people in the community have so much praise for NS1 and yet no hope for NS2, it's being made by the same people you know.

    Yes, criticise away, but at the moment the Alpha has much more glaring issues than the intricate gameplay ramifications of the Alien Commander. The time to provide feedback on that will come, but at the moment it just isn't helpful to the game to demand it be removed just because we don't like the smell of it.

    What I'm trying to say is, give it a chance. It is too early to decide whether or not its a good choice, but I think it is safe too say that if the developers have pursued this idea so vigourously then we should give them the benefit of the doubt.
  • AsimovAsimov Join Date: 2010-07-30 Member: 73352Members
    The title may be a bit dramatic, but the thoughts behind it are sound. The Alpha is a sounding board for UW. No it is not going to be NS1, though someone is guaranteed to made a mod for it. But everyone had their own favorite parts of NS1 that they want added.

    I don't think that they will remove the building bots, that's not the direction they are looking in, but hearing idea's and having us debate them is what an Alpha is all about.
  • TempesT487TempesT487 Join Date: 2009-04-15 Member: 67195Members, NS2 Playtester
    I think giving gorges the ability to build harvesters is a decent discussion to have, but demanding the removal of the AC right now is just ridiculous.
  • AvalonAvalon Join Date: 2007-03-04 Member: 60224Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1789487:date=Jul 30 2010, 04:55 PM:name=TempesT487)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TempesT487 @ Jul 30 2010, 04:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1789487"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think giving gorges the ability to build harvesters is a decent discussion to have, but demanding the removal of the AC right now is just ridiculous.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Agreed.

    I feel like with the AC and the new build model, there is going to be a huge wealth of strategy waiting to be discovered, and I am pretty excited to see how it plays out.
Sign In or Register to comment.