Blog update - Lua Debugging

MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Posts: 1,686Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts admin
Please post your thoughts on the latest blog entry here.

Max
Max McGuire
Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
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Comments

  • glimmermanglimmerman Join Date: 2004-04-29 Member: 28300Posts: 643Members, Constellation
    Max your coding skills still amaze me.

    And that concept art looks awesome smile-fix.gif Keep up the good work.
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu Anememone Join Date: 2002-03-23 Member: 345Posts: 10,501Members
    Whoops! New desktop background ahoy. I think by the time NS2 comes out Unknown Worlds will have assembled and sold about 6 different pieces of software that have nothing to do with NS. Not that I'm complaining.
    QUOTE (MOOtant @ Sep 21 2012, 11:06 AM) »
    What is wrong with being a racist?

  • kingmobkingmob Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3650Posts: 705Members, Constellation
    Excellent post.

    This has been one of the most exciting bits thus far besides the video or the creep growing.

    The use of LUA as a high level control will help you prototype new features faster.
    and performance testing should determine which bits get ported to C/C++.

    I hope you guys do get some money out of the debugger.
    here's to the future.

    Cheers.
  • ReeseReese Join Date: 2003-05-08 Member: 16143Posts: 701Members
    Granted, everything in this post is based on Lisp (through Emacs, double obscurity!), which I can understand is a serious time investment to learn if you don't already know it, but if you get some free time it might be helpful to play around with the SLIME development environment, which takes the run-time debugging you are doing now to its logical conclusion.

    You can see a video demonstrating some of the features here, and might at least be able to poach some useful ideas from it.
    Needs more cowbell
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471Posts: 2,126NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn "War is the science of destruction" - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Posts: 1,965Members
    edited May 2007
    Dont mean to be sounding like a *****; but shouldnt you be spending time and coding for NS2, and not a LUA debugger?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Posts: 1,686Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts admin
    edited May 2007
    QUOTE(WaterBoy @ May 6 2007, 12:36 AM) »
    Dont mean to be sounding like a *****; but shouldnt you be spending time and coding for NS2, and not a LUA debugger?

    Tool development -- like many aspects of building a product -- involves tough trade-offs. While tools improve your efficiency in the long-term, they cost time to develop and can cut into your short term productivity. I'm almost always in favor of building good tools since I believe the benefits extend beyond the productivity increase they offer.

    For example, if it's easy and painless to develop script code, then as a programmer you will be more willing to write code, even if that code may ultimately be thrown away. This means you are more willing to try out different design ideas, which will ultimately lead to a better game.

    So I do think this is a good avenue for us to pursue; Charlie is working on the NS2 code, so that's still moving along while I've been working on Decoda. One of the great things about our situation (being independent of a publisher) is that we can afford to do the things the "right way" without having to worry about missing a milestone or upsetting the schedule.

    Max
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • GaidanGaidan Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58132Posts: 53Members
    While tools can be very useful for scripting i can't help but ask how long UWE's funding will hold out (i'm not prying for details, i'm asking if i need to invest more into the company now or later when i'll probably have more to put in). Assuming you're debugger doesn't make any income - how long will the companies funding hold out?
  • scaryfacescaryface Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9918Posts: 192Members
    edited May 2007
    Good middleware makes me happy smile-fix.gif
    actually a debugger is more like beginningware...

    I envy people with the skill to code something like that on a whim and so quickly.

    have you considered making the lua debugger a plugin for something that already exists like Eclipse?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    If Hellen Keller falls in a forest, does she make a sound?
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  • AndosAndos Join Date: 2003-10-17 Member: 21742Posts: 265Members
    edited May 2007
    Brilliant update! smile-fix.gif
    I hope you post your thoughts on the blog more often (even tiny-small updates are great wink-fix.gif )
    Btw how is that technology release coming along?
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • GoldenprizeGoldenprize Join Date: 2006-11-05 Member: 58379Posts: 156Members
    edited May 2007
    amazing tool, amazing idea, maybe amazing game smile-fix.gif

    The picture looks VERY VERY GREAT, i know its an conzept but the colors and the quality is very great.
    Ah good i save my money on paypal to buy this game next year =)
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    (remind: my english is bad , im a long time out of non-english school)
    bunnyhoppers are 6ay


    DEUTSCHLAND
  • SolitarioSolitario Join Date: 2006-10-29 Member: 58097Posts: 245Members
    oh yeah I love blog-updates! smile-fix.gif
  • AlcapwnAlcapwn "War is the science of destruction" - John Abbot Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17590Posts: 1,965Members
    QUOTE(Max @ May 6 2007, 12:18 AM) »

    Tool development -- like many aspects of building a product -- involves tough trade-offs. While tools improve your efficiency in the long-term, they cost time to develop and can cut into your short term productivity. I'm almost always in favor of building good tools since I believe the benefits extend beyond the productivity increase they offer.

    For example, if it's easy and painless to develop script code, then as a programmer you will be more willing to write code, even if that code may ultimately be thrown away. This means you are more willing to try out different design ideas, which will ultimately lead to a better game.

    So I do think this is a good avenue for us to pursue; Charlie is working on the NS2 code, so that's still moving along while I've been working on Decoda. One of the great things about our situation (being independent of a publisher) is that we can afford to do the things the "right way" without having to worry about missing a milestone or upsetting the schedule.

    Max


    Ah, ok. wink-fix.gif
    *IMAGE BALEETED.* Sigs may not exceed 400x75 and/or 40KB. No exceptions. -Talesin
  • ChocolateChocolate The Team Mascot Join Date: 2006-10-31 Member: 58123Posts: 404Members
    Great work guys! I can't help you out in any way because I've tried learning C++ but it's just a bunch of gibberish to me tounge.gif. But I do know that this debugger would help you guys out a lot (I at least grasped that from my C++ attempt biggrin-fix.gif).

    I defiantly think this could make you a few bucks because as you said, there aren't very many good Lua Debuggers.

    Keep up the good work and keep those updates coming! marine.gif
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  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(Max @ May 5 2007, 01:02 PM)
    The purpose of defining different art sets like this – an art set is a collection of textures and prop models that have a similar theme – is so that we'll have plenty of visual variation between the levels for Natural Selection 2. The level designers for Natural Selection 1 did a great job, but for the sequel we want to give them even more tools to make every level feel unique and memorable.


    Awesome! This is great news, to me at least. "ns.wad" while good, never had enough variations. I think you may want to have environmental models centered around this too.
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • TriggermanTriggerman Graphic Artist Join Date: 2004-11-10 Member: 32724Posts: 553Members, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Yeah I have to agree on the varying the themes for NS2. So far that artist who's done the released stuff in your blog is nothing short of amazing. I'm just curious here if I can get an answer; will there be any outdoor environments? Is this something that the artist is planning and could we see some outdoor textures for like the exterior of a building, different life-forms besides the Karaa and so on? It's just that I began thinking when I played Metroid Prime, which contains alot of varying lifeforms, not all of them are useful but they add to the atmosphere so immensly (and also curious what kind of concept-art your NS artist would be capable of monster/character design wise tounge.gif )

    And even though it might not be in the scope for NS2 in right now, since I bet you want the game released sometime; I think it's definitively something for the NS universe in the future.
  • MaxMax Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment Join Date: 2002-03-15 Member: 318Posts: 1,686Super Administrators, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts admin
    QUOTE(Triggerman @ May 6 2007, 02:44 PM) »

    Yeah I have to agree on the varying the themes for NS2. So far that artist who's done the released stuff in your blog is nothing short of amazing. I'm just curious here if I can get an answer; will there be any outdoor environments? Is this something that the artist is planning and could we see some outdoor textures for like the exterior of a building, different life-forms besides the Karaa and so on? It's just that I began thinking when I played Metroid Prime, which contains alot of varying lifeforms, not all of them are useful but they add to the atmosphere so immensly (and also curious what kind of concept-art your NS artist would be capable of monster/character design wise tounge.gif )

    And even though it might not be in the scope for NS2 in right now, since I bet you want the game released sometime; I think it's definitively something for the NS universe in the future.

    We've actually posted artwork by 3 different artists (Nate, Cory and Christian), but I agree they are all amazing. We'll probably be saving any significant outdoor stuff for a future expansion or game so that we have the time and resources to do it right

    Max
    Max McGuire
    Technical Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • Corporal_FortierCorporal_Fortier Join Date: 2005-03-22 Member: 46079Posts: 409Members, Constellation
    Wow, you guys really rock! Like other posters, I'd love to be able to help out, but eh, you know the drill, no skills and all... Looking forward the next blog post! I almost did in my pants when I saw the artwork on UW'S NS page ^^

    QUOTE(Max @ May 6 2007, 06:33 PM) »

    We'll probably be saving any significant outdoor stuff for a future expansion or game so that we have the time and resources to do it right

    Max

    Maybe this should go into the FAQ? Just to clear it up for those who want jeeps, F16 and all that stuff.
    image
  • J!J! NS2 Artist Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Posts: 422Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    Good idea.
  • rsdrsd Join Date: 2003-02-11 Member: 13405Posts: 222Members
    Awesome stuff. I'm a huge fan of writing tools that aid development. The number of tasks that can be simplified/automated is amazing when you put your mind to it.

    I'd love to hear what the first version of the debugger was, sounds suspiciously like something that seemed awesome until you tried to use it wink-fix.gif

    I hope you guys release the LUA debugger/ide alongside the game.
  • sherpasherpa stopcommandermode Join Date: 2006-11-04 Member: 58338Posts: 1,043Members
    i thought you sourced yourself out enough last year to get the cash to concentrate on ns2? yet you plan on selling the debugger?

    make ns2

    sad-fix.gif
    [Fanarama] you're like kryptonite to electronics, sherpa
  • KainTSAKainTSA Join Date: 2005-05-30 Member: 52831Posts: 315Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(sherpa @ May 7 2007, 08:04 AM) »

    i thought you sourced yourself out enough last year to get the cash to concentrate on ns2? yet you plan on selling the debugger?
    make ns2
    sad-fix.gif


    Making a debugger is going to speed development, meaning they are going to do it no matter what. Why not spend a little extra time to make it look pretty enough to sell?

    Anyway, nice entry. I'm glad you guys aren't rushing things too much. The earlier in development you make the tools, the more benefit you are going to get from them smile-fix.gif
    New forum member, old player
  • J!J! NS2 Artist Join Date: 2004-11-14 Member: 32788Posts: 422Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester
    QUOTE(sherpa @ May 7 2007, 09:34 PM) »

    i thought you sourced yourself out enough last year to get the cash to concentrate on ns2? yet you plan on selling the debugger?

    make ns2

    sad-fix.gif


    Max is not the only person making NS2. While he works on the debugger (which will greatly improve productivity in the long run) the rest of the team is still concentrating very hard on getting things done.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Posts: 6,852Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer admin
    QUOTE(sherpa @ May 7 2007, 05:04 AM) »

    i thought you sourced yourself out enough last year to get the cash to concentrate on ns2? yet you plan on selling the debugger?

    make ns2

    sad-fix.gif


    We are. If we thought it would be faster to make NS2 without Decoda, we would (but it's not).

    I think there's a good chance we'll release the debugger with the game as well, so it will speed your development of mods also.
    Charlie Cleveland
    Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment
  • ShockwaveShockwave If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336Posts: 3,730NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    Really cool, and definitely a step in a right direction Max. I think, coming from a modification background, the recognition that providing easy support for people in turn to modify your game is the best way to make it survive long beyond shelf life is fairly obvious.

    Loving the concept art that keeps springing up too, definitely the mental image I envisaged.

    puzl & I had a conversation a while ago that summarised it quite well, I feel. The gist was 'Make everything 'feel' logical and cool, you can work out the game balance bits around it'. At the end of the day, titles have sold despite having little to no initial balance, but oozing cool. Likewise, the great road of games is littered with titles that were balance genius, but simply weren't much fun to play.

    - Shockwave
  • KungFuDiscoMonkeyKungFuDiscoMonkey Creator of ns_altair Join Date: 2003-03-15 Member: 14555Posts: 2,588Members, NS1 Playtester, Reinforced - Onos mod
    Think what would happen if Valve didn't work on their level editor or face poser or model viewer. Their games might take even longer to make. Tool development is an important part of the overall development.
    毎日勉強したら上手になるよ
  • ShockwaveShockwave If a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336Posts: 3,730NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    QUOTE(KungFuDiscoMonkey @ May 7 2007, 04:54 PM) »

    Tool development is an important part of the overall development.

    And too often neglected!
  • the_x5the_x5 the Xzianthian Join Date: 2004-03-02 Member: 27041Posts: 3,175Members, Constellation
    QUOTE(Flayra @ May 7 2007, 11:45 AM) »

    I think there's a good chance we'll release the debugger with the game as well, so it will speed your development of mods also.


    Ooh! Good point.

    QUOTE(Shockwave @ May 7 2007, 11:58 AM) »
    And too often neglected!


    QFT.

    I agree that good tools will lead to a more modular design and higher productivity in the end. (although I suppose there is some balance point) And come to think of it, those good tools will certainly make it easier to expand custom content.
    Coined the qualitative attribute entropy in reference to game maps.
    Do not eat the dark energy balls, please.
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  • WurmspawnWurmspawn Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 19Posts: 462Members
    woot, blog updates!

    QUOTE(Shockwave @ May 7 2007, 09:54 AM) »

    puzl & I had a conversation a while ago that summarised it quite well, I feel. The gist was 'Make everything 'feel' logical and cool, you can work out the game balance bits around it'. At the end of the day, titles have sold despite having little to no initial balance, but oozing cool. Likewise, the great road of games is littered with titles that were balance genius, but simply weren't much fun to play.


    I've always felt that good balance was intrinsically linked to fun gameplay. And here I am referring not only to balance in terms of just stats interacting, but also the various features of the game that complement and play off of each other.
    "Plurality should not be posited without necessity" -Occam PLUR ~:o
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  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Posts: 8,205Forum Moderators, Constellation mod
    You can have fun without balance, see most mini-mods that are just plain goofy(Surprise! comes to mind), and it's also very possible to have balance without fun. Maybe chess...
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